“What disturbs me most is the fact that no one is cringing at the information we received about Aberforth! And to top it off its sort of mentioned IN THE BOOKS! The books that children read!! Isnt that what some of your arguments are based on!?”
THANK YOU
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) – Cite This Source – Share This big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.
I think intolerance of homosexuality would fall under this definition.
Honestly I think we should decorate this comment board with Dark Marks and change the site to The Deatheaters Lounge! It angers me to see so many people that are SUPPOSALLY against bigotry since they love the books so much and then sit here and comment the way they do!
Andrew, first off, it’s Meissa, not Melissa. And, I didn’t assume anyone was disrespecting me, so don’t know what you’re referring to. I don’t tend to care what people think of me, but I do care if a line of thinking leads to people calling my friends’ children names because they both happen to be women, or people putting laws on the books that keep people who love each other from marrying and having the same rights as people who happen to be opposite genders. As for values, I tend to believe in universal human values (or needs), and hope that people spend time examining themselves and trying to live in a way that matches these, and also engage in dialogue with others, and never stop questioning things.
As for right/wrong, truth/lies, black/white ways of thinking, I don’t tend toward that way of thinking. At least I challenge myself so.
And one more thing… Can someone PLEASE tell me WHY the fact that Dumbledore is gay means that hes a pedophile as well??? Im not gay but the last time I checked gay people just like other gay people?! And Harry is STRAIGHT!!!!!!
well im gay and i’ve been reading the harry potter books since 1998, and im so shocked, not at the Dumbledore revelation – and I was very surprised at that, didn’t see it coming!.. but the horrible comments here from people. i didnt choose to be gay and nor did Dumbldore, how come it’s only straight people assume that being gay is a choice – when did you CHOOSE to be straight?! Lots of people were surprised when I told them I was gay so I’m confused why some people are saying she was with-holding back that info in the books. Maybe Professor Sprout is lesbian, the actress who plays her is in real life. But it wouldn’t make any difference to her character so why should it matter with dumbledore?? :-s
“Simon, obviously I was speaking of physical relationships, all of which contained romantic attraction. I’ve had lots of emotionally fulfilling relationships with men and women too. I fail to see how this means I’m not seeing things in sufficient shades of grey…”
Ah, I knew there was something I forgot to add. At different times of people’s lives they have different facets that they pay attention to. Many people in their adolescence care more about physical aspects of their relationships, and follow their physical attractions accordingly, but some people become more interested in other aspects of relationships later and follow their attractions there. I mean to say that because they’re focused on a different portion of their sexuality at that time they have different ideas of what in their relationships is fulfilling.
I also didn’t mean to say that you personally weren’t seeing in sufficient shades of gray. It was a sweeping, general, blanket statement that I used as an introduction into my thesis.
Another thing that I failed to say is that all of the types of attraction that I described are parts of the larger labels “sexual attraction” and “romantic attraction.” Even sex and romance aren’t purely physical.
The final point (I hope) that I failed to make is that any label you can place on a sexual orientation is just that – a label. There’s no meaning to it that’s universally understood, so what I’m trying to describe is my view on sexuality. Beyond that, when I describe myself as “gay” or “homosexual,” it’s based on my perceived sexuality through my view. Since it may not always match what others believe there are also discrepancies between what people understand and what I mean, thus people who claim to be homosexual but have had relationships (even fulfilling ones) with the opposite gender may have a different meaning behind their description, too.
Trying to match it to my terms isn’t perfect, but I’ll try: if someone’s description of sexuality were based purely on physical, but they had fulfilling relationships because of emotional attraction, it’s very possible for their relationship track record to seem to differ from their claimed sexuality.
Sorry, I’m sure that sounds really abstract and kind of incoherent, but it’s 6:43 AM where I live and am beginning to feel the effects of lack of sleep.
Hope that cleared things up!
Maybe Professor Sprout is lesbian, the actress who plays her is in real life. But it wouldn’t make any difference to her character so why should it matter with dumbledore?? :-s
Posted by Robbie on October 21, 2007 @ 09:41 AM
Good point Robbie!
“Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) – Cite This Source – Share This big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -ries. 1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.”
So by this definition, each poster who continue to bash anyone who is against “the revelation” is likewise a bigot.
“Honestly I think we should decorate this comment board with Dark Marks and change the site to The Deatheaters Lounge! It angers me to see so many people that are SUPPOSALLY against bigotry since they love the books so much and then sit here and comment the way they do!”
So differing opinions equals bigotry? How does that work?
“Maybe I need to “come out of the closet” and demand rights for being a heterosexual”
You have them. On the order of 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon married couples in the U.S. Typically these are composed of about 400 state benefits and over 1,000 federal benefits. Among them are the rights to:
joint parenting; joint adoption; joint foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents); status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent; joint insurance policies for home, auto and health; dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support; immigration and residency for partners from other countries; inheritance automatically in the absence of a will; joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment; inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate); benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare; spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home; veterans’ discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns; joint filing of customs claims when traveling; wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children; bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child; decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her; crime victims’ recovery benefits; loss of consortium tort benefits; domestic violence protection orders; judicial protections and evidentiary immunity;
Most of these legal and economic benefits cannot be privately arranged or contracted for. For example, absent a legal (or civil) marriage, there is no guaranteed joint responsibility to the partner and to third parties (including children) in such areas as child support, debts to creditors, taxes, etc. In addition, private employers and institutions often give other economic privileges and other benefits (special rates or memberships) only to married couples. And, of course, when people cannot marry, they are denied all the emotional and social benefits and responsibilities of marriage as well.
And that is just what you get for getting married
Man, it’s a hard life for you straight people!
WHO THE HELL CARES IF DD IS GAY OR NOT, IT DOESN’T MATTER!!!! DD is a great man who may have loved Grinedelwald as a youth, but he is now an old old old man. Both he and McGonagall have been living as celibate teachers and mentors at Hogwarts for over 50 years. They neither lust over their students or even see them as anything other than young adults that they teaching them in the skills of MAGIC not SEX-ED. GROW UP AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIVES.
“WHO THE HELL CARES IF DD IS GAY OR NOT, IT DOESN’T MATTER!!!! DD is a great man who may have loved Grinedelwald as a youth, but he is now an old old old man. Both he and McGonagall have been living as celibate teachers and mentors at Hogwarts for over 50 years. They neither lust over their students or even see them as anything other than young adults that they teaching them in the skills of MAGIC not SEX-ED. GROW UP AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIVES.”
If you are allowed to express your opinion, why shouldn’t others be allowed to do likewise?
What follows are some comments I made on another site and I hope they will add to the debate:
Comment 1: Its quite obvious when people (some of them well meaning) speak of Dumbledore’s “lifestyle” that they think gay people live differently or in a different dimension to straight people. It also raises images of Dumbledore sitting in seedy gay bars on the outskirts of London on his nights off or furtively fumbling in some back alley.
Homosexuality is not a “lifestyle”, it is an orientation, immutable – unchangeable. However pursuing the life that some choose – the so called “gay scene” is to a large degree a life choice (although some get forced into it) and that may or may not involve all sorts of things – this is a lifestyle as much as raving or drug taking or swinging etc are “lifestyles” and is completely separate from the orientation. Some straight people live a gay lifestyle as much as a sizable portion if not the majority of gay orientated people do not.
Absolutely nothing in the books (or JK’s revelations) even hints at the fact that Dumbledore lived such a gay “lifestyle” but rather that he, like almost every young person, fell in love, only it was with another man. It so happened, as it also sometimes does, that he fell deeply in love with a bad person. Love (take it from someone who knows) does not know the boundaries of social or religious convention – or even the conventions of good and evil – it is quite neutral in that respect with primarily a biological base. Dumbledore, however, unlike many of us, had the courage of his convictions and despite what must have been one of the hardest things any person (real or imagined) had to do, he had to kill the love of his life. After that, I speculate, he never fell in love again (or allowed himself to) and became, as he is presented in the books, almost ascetic in his relationships with people. It was (and remains) an effective way to prevent getting hurt again.
It is not true that Dumbledore being gay is irrelevant to the story – it, in large part, crafted him into the person he was.
Comment 2: The comments on here are interesting but what surprises and truly delights me is number of young people (I assume most are) for whom this revelation was either not a shock or was simply accepted as interesting.
I fully expected (and got) the childish and frankly nonsensical “ZOMG I like loved the series but now I like don’t and like I was the biggest fan in my school and now I like hate JK and her faggy books” – these responses need to be taken from whence they come – ignorant, immature people of whatever age who have no real understanding of life’s many facets. If your love / affection for another person happens to fit society and religion’s constraints then bully for you but please don’t project your lack of understanding onto those who, through no choice of their own, have experiences and feelings outside the average.
JK is a secular saint, a modern day heroine who has done more to promote love, tolerance and diversity than dozens of her peers put together. She has also single handedly in one fell swoop strengthened gay rights around the world – after all who doesn’t love Dumbledore.
Her method was genius – I was admittedly disappointed that there were (apparently) no gay characters in her books but there was equally no animosity towards them. Everyone, read and loved the books – then (innocently?) she lets it drop that arguably the most important and loved character apart from Harry was gay – amazing and so very encouraging. From the bottom of my heart JK, thank you. You have no idea how much it means to those of us who for too long have been living on the periphery of life. For a generation of children it means thinking about and approaching homosexual people in a different light because now every Harry Potter fan knows someone gay.
Comment 3: I’ve noticed a number of people who object to JK telling a young audience member (in an audience of young people) that Dumbledore is gay. I would like to address this: To tell a child that Dumbledore loved Grindlewald is no more or less than telling a child that Harry loved Ginny and in a world as perfect I hope ours can become, it would make no difference. The objection is that the issue of homosexuality automatically raises the issue of sex. You must please try to get it into your head that being gay is not all about sex – the impression given is that gay people simply rut like animals but all the noble and beautiful emotions of love, companionship and loyalty to name but a few are reserved for straight people who naturally never have sex anyway or at least it’s never spoken of – but where homosexuals are concerned its all that’s spoken about. I get tired of getting asked – “so how do you do it?” -“What do boys do together?” – when I would like to talk about who I love and how my heart was broken when he left – trust me sex is as much and as little to do with a gay person’s life as it has to do with a straight person’s life – only society places the emphasis differently. There are various reasons for this and the blame lies partly with the gay community but you have to know it a false dichotomy – you may say what you please but I will also call you out on it. It displays at best complete ignorance and at worse festering bigotry. Gay people are your teachers, your shop assistants, your doctor, your plumber, your priest, your mechanic, possibly your brother or sister and sometimes your mom or dad. They live among you – they are no different and if you cut them, they bleed – they love, they hate, they laugh and cry and sometimes, they have sex – so what – so do you (possibly) but it is far from all there is to them – gay people are just that – people – no more or less and with whom they fall in love or have consensual sex is quite frankly neither here nor there.
Comment 4: I have written some comments along certain themes I noticed in this discussion. The argument seems to have died somewhat but was going furiously at one stage – really excellent stuff! There is one last thing I want to say concerning the comments like “Ah, now I know why Dumbledore and Harry spent so much time in his office…” and such-like. There were more of the same and some even more accusatory but these comments all follow the extremely hurtful and wholly untrue assumption happily championed by the church and society of not so long ago, that all homosexuals are pedophiles (or more colloquially “kiddy-fiddlers”).
While some might want to dismiss this as light hearted banter I want to tell you that many otherwise reasonable people believe this and it must be addressed. It is of course true that some gay men do molest children as do many many more (due to numerical superiority) heterosexuals – yet heterosexuality is not condemned for harboring such deviants. The truth is two-fold. Firstly the molestation of children has very little or nothing to do with adult sexual preference and many molesters target both boys and girls or molest who they have easiest access to – their deviant sexual practices are about children and rarely about one sex over another. Children are in any event by and large asexual. Secondly, it is simply not true that gay men as opposed to straight men are automatically aroused by children – it cannot be stated simpler than that and anyone who states differently is either badly misinformed (and ignorant) or willfully and mischievously spreading misinformation. Spreading lies like this directly affects people’s lives and can lead to beatings and even killings of gay people by those who imbibe and believe this rot! Leave the joking about Dumbledore and Harry aside – it is very hurtful, inaccurate and quite simply untrue. Flyboy out.
What does Dumbledore being gay have anything to do with JKs bottom line??? This information was not published in the books, there were no love scenes with the 2 of them, or anything in the story line to contridict the fact that hes gay! So why would someone NOT read the books if they knew he was gay?? Its not openly said to offend someone! How some people on this board can defend Jo on being openly controversial in her books and the messages they send and then bash her for making one of HER OWN characters gay is hypicritical! It goes to show that its true when people say “If you nothing good to say then dont say nothing at all” because you make yourself look like an ass.
Just because everyone doesnt except the gay community doesnt mean that it shouldnt be talked about! The whole series is about real life situations in a fantasy world! Whats so hard to understand??? There are gay people in the muggle world so why not the wizarding world??
What disturbs me most is the fact that no one is cringing at the information we received about Aberforth! And to top it off its sort of mentioned IN THE BOOKS! The books that children read!! Isnt that what some of your arguments are based on!?