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Yah! What FraA said. Can we please move on? I think that the HP cast almost always look good, at events.Especially the ladies. Premiers, Media Parties, Openings…..I’d love to see Alan Rickman or David Thewlis in a Tuxedo. Already seen Dan.

I think this book is as good for children as is Narnia and Harry Potter. Just because it “kills God” does not mean it’s bad. Just because Narnia supports “God” does not mean it’s good either. There are many viewpoints, and I believe children should have the right to choose religions, rather than be forced into them by parents.

Reading posts so eloquently written by eleven and thirteen year olds makes me have hope for today’s youth. Don’t take me wrong, I’m just so used to seeing young posters completely massacre their language online it’s a breath of fresh air to see the complete opposite. That’s what reading does for you and it shows.

I’ve never read His Dark Materials and now you’ve all piqued up my curiosity.

I think the warning is valid. I have read HDM and enjoyed the books until the end. The books are rather insidious. Readers are naturally on Lyra’s side and want her to prevail. It is only in the third book that you discover the evil forces represent organized religion and Lyra must kill God. Narnia is not as overtly religious. I mean, HP ends up with religious tones also but none as blunt and obvious as HDM. I have no problem with writing an atheistic book. My problem is that the symbolism is very hidden until the end.

@ Mars, a discussion for a different forum but…you worship at the Church of Mars? As someone once gently asked me “Are you smarter than the wisdom of thousands of years of scholarship? Have you really devoted your life to studying the Bible and all associated texts? If so, go with your gut. If not, you are creating your own religion.”

Reading some comments has brought up another issue that bothers me. Parenting. Each parent has a right to raises their child(ren) differently. And to say that, “oh they’re not good parents by not letting the kids read specific books,” is just wrong and it has to stop. Honestly, parents have boundaries to what their kids can do. I’m not saying sheltering kids is good but you can’t let them do everything.

It’s also wrong to assume that because an author may not embrace religion that he is somehow wrong.

Authors are under NO OBLIGATION to ‘big up’ any religion. By saying parents should be warned, it’s suggesting that any piece of literature that doesn’t sing the praises of YOUR beliefs is somehow wrong. Should non Christians be warned that in the Harry Potter books there are references to Christmas? If not, then NO WARNINGS are necessary.

It really gets on my nerves hearing all this talk about “killing god” because that is only a superficial reading of the books and the quotes by Pullman are completely out of context. The Authority, as “god” is called in the books, cannot be defended: he is not the Creator, more like the someone who has assumed leadership. The Authority is ultimately the representation of dogmatic religion, of restricted views, of intolerance. The Authority was the god of those who burned people at the stakes, the god of the inquisition and of fundamentalists and extremists. Would anyone really want to be on the side of the people who want to burn HP books , condemn this trilogy without reading it and call for a boycott without watching the film? Is anyone willing to stand by their side?

If you want to find a “god-like” entity in the books, look no further than Dust. It is not god in the Christian sense, but it is the source of life; it is everything. It is what we all, in the books, become a part of after we die. It is everpresent, too. The catch in the books is that it is undermined by prejudice and restriction or a dogmatic institution that has gained too much political power. And that is a very valid point, because whatever your views and beliefs, one cannot in any way deny that when religion becomes involved in politics, bad things follow. That, I believe, is also what Pullman has always been trying to communicate, but keeps getting quoted out of context.

I’m of the opinion that children will only read what interests them, what appeals to them. If they pick up HDM and read it to the end, then they are ready to face its ideas. If not, what’s the bet they’ll finish before reaching the end? And to be honest, if someone tells me I’m not allowed to read or watch something, my first instict is to find out why. I think that is very healthy, this need to expand knowledge, to encourage curiosity. It allows a child to grow with more rounded views.

And Christians (or peope of other religions) who allow themselves to read something that challenges their faiths and beliefs may very well end up with an even stronger faith and more consistent beliefs as a result.

HJWeasley, mind that there is no character as ‘God’ in ‘Dark Materials’ in the sense that we understand God. The character of God in the books is simply the first ever angel, and he is desperately tired and wants to be liberated. To become one with everything: just as Lyra and Will release the souls of dead humans, God, in the books, wants the same. It’s not anti-Christian, really; it’s just allegorical fiction.

Gringa and Joey—Can I just say THANK YOU for posting your summaries of the central ideas in HDM? You are both spot on as to who “God” is in these books and to what Phillip Pullman is referring when he writes about the “Church.” (He has publicly said that organized religion has in fact done much good in the world.) The misinformation flying around the Internet about these books and the movie is just astounding. It so reminds me of the Georgia woman who has been to court repeatedly to get HP books banned, books that she hasn’t even read.

I’m reading the HDM trilogy again and enjoying it even more than before. It’s truly amazing.

Thanks again for trying to clear the air!

Yes, thank you Gringa and Joey, now I don’t have to post that all over again! XD I’m fed up of this debate springing up wherever the Golden Compass is mentioned!! DDD:

Not sure what I think of this film yet – from the trailer it seems too watered-down. I think I’ll see it anyway though. ^w I hope Katie and Evanna had a good time there; they sure look happy!

“It is only in the third book that you discover the evil forces represent organized religion and Lyra must kill God.”—Wondering

Actually Wondering, Lyra and the other kids do not “kill god,” or the “Authority” as it is called in the book. Lyra and Will, the main characters, spend most of the series running from parallel world to parallel world trying to elude danger. Eventually she decides she wants to see her friend Roger again, who died and lives in the underworld. She finds that the world of the afterlife is pretty horrible, and creates a window to a different world to set them free. That’s about the biggest “anti-christian” thing she does.

Lord Asriel, her father, is the one who sets out to kill “the Authority.” In fact, you spend two books hearing about this upcoming war between Asriel and the Authority, and you see very little of it. And as others have said, the new Authority is a former human turned angel who is pretty vicious. He is not the “creator” most consider to be our God.

As for “not knowing it’s against organized religion until the end,” that is completely false. You know from early on in the first book that the Church is behind some of the nasty things that are going on (kidnapping kids and seperating them from the spirit). At this point, Pullman isn’t attacking the Christian faith, he is suggesting that such a powerful group (ie. the Catholic Church) can be corrupted by power. They use there power to hurt people in the name of God. We seen that numerous times throughout history.

My last piece on the subject: I firmly believe that if kids are presented with all different points of view, including ones on faith, they can better judge for themselves what they believe in. For me, my faith (I am Christian) was a choice of my own – though I have grown up in a very Christain family, I think I could have chosen another belief if it was right for me. This is because my parents told me to believe in what I actually, truly believed in, and not to base it off of their beliefs. When kids are challenged with thinking for themselves on all subjects, they’ll probably be better off in life.

However, I do understand what people have been saying about “setting guidlines” for their kids. I’m not saying they should be allowed to do anything, more that they should have the option of doing different things.

But I’d prefer to go back to gossip, if nobody minds. I think Evanna looks lovely and excited to be at her first non-Potter premiere :)

Not really following the discussion, but I just wanted to input my opinion…

Telling people about the “kill God” concept of the books is not so much a warning to others or fear of people becoming corrupted. To me, it’s more of spreading the information.

I saw the preview and didn’t want to see The Golden Compass, purely because it didn’t interest me. I thought it looked too much like the Chronicles of Narnia. Once I found out about the Kill God theme, I just turned away from it. Informing others (for me) isn’t the fear they’ll be affected by the movie, it’s generally opposing the theme. I don’t think the sort of thing should be supported by Christians. If you do not believe in God I don’t care if you go see it, just don’t expect me to.

Thanks, AccioChocolate and Axis! :D

To those who are uneasy about the books: The good and bad thing about the HDM trilogy is that it has a lot of potentially controversial issues and can be quite daring. This is what makes them such interesting stories on so many levels. The problem is that these themes get reduced to a few short sentences that are out of context, and as such get misrepresented. Take the Pullman wants to kill god” idea for example: the recent boycott of the films is holding on fiercely to that sentence based on one single interview given by Pullman many years ago.

The reality of those themes in their proper context are something quite different and you often find that what is said about the books is completely different than what the books actually say. The message not at all as disturbing as many seem to think it is. But it does present some very interesting questions, and invites the reader to reflect.

Controversy sells. That is why the boycott is ultimately drawing more attention to the films and books. But controversy also sells newspapers, which is why the books are reduced to a reduced version of its themes.

Emerika, how can you know if it is about spreading information since you implied you haven’t read it?

I think people who are a little dubious about it should give it a try, because above all else, it’s a brilliant story. And when they’re finished and make their own mind about what it means, rather than relying on other people, sit down and discuss it with others, to see what they got out of it. You are only allowed to dislike something once you’ve given it a try.

(By the way, has anyone heard Pullman’s ideas on the “democracy of reading” and how he says he trusts the reader? It’s very interesting and fascinating)

I actually like that the movie looks a little watered down, I am not saying it should be. But for my emotional well being, my imagination is very good and some of the scenes in the book are very disturbing, I am kinda like…well should I see the movie or not, I was very excited about it until I read the golden compass, now I am not so sure, because it does give me WEF. And for people who can’t handle the discussion go to a different post to gossip, you don’t have to read any of this no one is making you. And thank you to Gringa and Joey your posts were interesting…I haven’t finished the series yet…working on it…but I enjoyed reading your thoughts about the books.

One thing about religion even though it is organised no one can agree on which way to organise it. I am Christian, but I was raised baptist, my husband methodist, my best friend Catholic, and the list goes on of the different denominations represented in my circle of friends. Which means during Bible study we all have a different translation of the Bible, and we all were taught slightly different ways of interepretting the text. Some don’t think I am a Christian because I wasn’t baptised in their church because only their denomination is correct. Well you know Jews and Muslims worship the same God I do, just in a different way. My sister-in-law is Catholic, she is horrified by this book series, she hasn’t read it, the church is preaching against it, and she works at a school so there is buzz there too. I didn’t know there was even a problem with it until after I was nearly done with the Golden Compass…so that makes this yesterday…so where have I been? At work or watching the food network with my nose shoved inside a Harry Potter Book. I just grabed His Dark Materials while walking through walmart last week, thinking I should read that before the movie comes out. And went on. I do know that there are some people out there that can not handle hearing things that might test their faith, I had to hold a friends hand through anthropology and astronomy in college just to get her through the class because the teachers tested her faith as a Christian, I sat there and listened without a problem. The reason there is a warning out there for this book, is because some people can not handle being tested…look the southern baptist convention has put a ban on Disney of all things. People think that Beauty and the Beast teaches young girls to marry and stay with abussive husbands, thinking they will be able to change them. You will get out of any story what you bring to it in my opinion, if you want to find evil you will. If you misinterpret and put a better or worse or different meaning than what is intended you put it there. I haven’t finished the series, I will probably do that monday and tuesday when I am off of work, it does sound like it is more confusing than absolute, and from teh writting style so far I can see that. But I think the Scarlet Letter was confusing religious (it didn’t test me it just gave me that WEF again) and that wasn’t an evil book was it? Even though the characters definitely didn’t do what they were supposed to do in the eyes of the church? I know long hall here…sorry

I just saw the trailor for this movie on t.v and realized, to my surprise, that this film is rated pg-13. I wonder what elements they kept in to achieve that rating…

If anyone’s interested, there’s ann article in Newsweek about the director of the Golden Compass who initially abandoned the project after outcries from both religious groups who claimed the film had too much anti-catholisism in it, and from fans themselves who said there wasn’t enough in it. The funny thing is non of these people had yet to see it, yet already assumed these things. It’s like laura Mallory, who advertises the satanicism of Harry Potter yet hasn’t even read the books herself. I believe everyone, including parents, should lead an open mind before reading or viewing something, and especially when considering to let their own children do so. I first read these books at 12 years old (I am now 14) and fell in love with them. At the time I mainly belived in a god and the premis of the book about the role of the Magisterium did not deter me from the wonderful story of Lyra’s growth through adolescents, and all the fantasy elements. In fact, I though the spiritual/religious aspects brought a whole new twist to the story and introduced new ideas and opinions that I had not seen before in any other book or movie, which helped me open doors and reach out from just those of my family.

You see, these books are not a retribution on organised religion (even though Mr. Pullman hints towards his dislike of it and how he sees it affected his parallel universe), but a magically written story that holds many laughs, cliff-hangers, and a style of writing you can’t help but fall in love with. I love this series, and I absolutely can’t wait to see its rendition on the big screen.

I for one would like to thank HJWealsey for the warning. HJ is not trying to censor anything, and I wouldn’t want to read a book that was anti-God anyway. So I appreciate it.

@Gringa and Joey – the Authority certainly can be read as a symolism of God. Or, more accurately, as a symbolism of the “god-idea” which was necessary in a less developed time. Lyra is acting to set the world free of the constraints of religion – to sum it up easily: killing the idea of God. The god-myth served its purpose but has no place in the modern world. Dust is the comsic force (big bang) that created all of us – evolution without divine intervention.

I don’t argue that an author is good or bad. HDM is a fascinating story (that lags a good bit in book 2) but it is not for everyone. I am offering a warning only – there is material here that is anti-religion…anti-Catholic especially. People should be well-informed and make their choices based on knowing all of this information. I used the word insidious because the anti-religious stance is not obvious at first (standing by that, mollywobble) and becomes very blatant at the end.

Even the director has said he had to soften the anti-religious elements of the book to ensure the profitability of the films.

In reference to HJWeasley’s warnings. My daughter read all three books and told me that the anti-religious parts were at the end of the third. I stopped reading midway through the third book because the writing was so awful. There are definite hints of anti-catholicism in the first book, which I did not find too bad. The second book began to get tedious by the middle.

What is wrong with Pullman’s writing, imo, is that he wrote the books to get his message out rather than for the story. He seems to be quite jealous of both JKR and C.S. Lewis.