I was out of town for a bit and its interesting to return to this discussion. Ultimately, of course, the director will be who the director will be, we’ll still go to the movies, we’ll still buy the dvds (this time on blue ray)

But I am sticking with my original position, which I had to go back to page 4 of this thread to find. For me, the criteria is coherence of story line, and since we are discussing a series, that means not only must each film be internally coherent and logical, there needs to be constant reference across the films to set up the final film. By that criteria, OotP was a disappointment to me, and now I’m wondering just how the missing plot elements will be worked back in to bring the film series to a successful and satisfying conclusion.

In PoA, yes, I wish there had been an explanation of the Marauders’ Map, but leaving it out doesn’t detract from the complete series of films (tho it does leave puzzling moments within the film: my wife has not read the books but does watch the films, and picked up on the fact that Lupin knew the parchment was a map, and that Sirius knew “the map never lies”). An explanation about Harry’s Patronus would also have been useful. But, neither of these omissions really have a negative impact on the entire series of films.

OotP has its internal coherence, I fully grant that. But its weakness is that it does not set up the plot lines and clues for HBP and DH. The most obvious of these omissions surround the locket in Grimmauld Place, which automatically leads to Kreacher (and there had been a discussion during production about not having Kreacher in the film!) stealing back the Black family heirlooms, and then to Mundungus. There is no reference to Regulus. There is no reference to the two-way mirrors. Those are serious omissions in the overall story line that will need to be addressed somehow. The discussion between Harry and Dumbledore about the Prophecy seems oddly edited to me, but the lack of disalogue about Trelawney and the making of the Prophecy will cause a dilemma that needs to be addressed in HBP. This issue, like the absence of Dobby (again) and the bashing of the RoR can probably be skated over, but pose story line problems that could have been avoided. After all, HBP was available while OotP was being made, and there were (limited?) conversations with JKR… or, the production leaders (including director, writer, editor and others as a collective here) could have asked Evanna Lynch if they were doing it right!

So, in ten months and two weeks we’ll go see HBP, and we’ll enjoy finding out how our expectations are met and questions are answered …can’t wait!

redbeard, that was a classy gesture, tipping my hat at you ;-)

and i’m still catching up…similar acknowlegement to ginny and christine

Kelly: I agree that an important consideration when selecting a director to helm any film, particularly a popular franchise, is the ability of that director to bring in paying audience members. So box office is one consideration. However, instead of saying that movies should “not be judged by critics” altogether, I believe their opinion is another important consideration in addition to the public’s reception. I also respectfully disagree that simply because Cuaron was, as you put it, “a critics’ darling,” critics were bound to “praise it.” Even well regarded directors like Ron Howard can get bashed by critics for films that they objectively judge to be of lesser quality (e.g. The DaVinci Code did not get the best reviews) than the other great films that director has made (e.g. Oscar winning A Beautiful Mind). Consequently, if a director’s work is liked by critics it is likely that their work has some merit which should not be minimized.

I’m not sure I recall when Harry and Hermione imply that Ron, as you say, “can’t handle things.” Hermione does say, “seeing as how you can’t walk…” Furthermore, while I adore Ron as a character and especially appreciated his stronger presence in OotP, I believe JKR in interviews as well as the books themselves presents Ron as slightly more immature than his two friends. However, he has qualities which I also esteem quite highly. So I suppose I am having trouble recalling instances in POA where Ron was made too look like a “bumbling idiot” when he seems to simply act like a teenage boy who is slightly insecure, but with a nice sense of humor.

I just reread the chapter in POA when the trio are about to see Buckbeak, save Sirius, etc. and Cuaron did not add in any extra SuperHermione touches. Her throwing rocks was simply a plot device to seemlessly integrate time travel and get the trio out of the hut. Hermione is a smart witch who was warned by Dumbledore as well as others about how to use the time turner and time travel responsibly, so she is simply following through. She is also shown to have flaws as when she howls for Lupin as a werewolf and he comes charging at her and Harry and she says “yeah, didn’t think about that.” She also is shown to be weary of flying. Again, I guess I’m not sure what kind of imperfections should have been shown. I do agree that more time should have been devoted to crafting a better Shrieking Shack sequence that provides more details and that Harry could have been stading in the forefront a little more, but as the movies and books are decidedly Harry-centric and I like to view the trio as equals to each other in their own unique ways and not Super Harry and his two sidekicks, I think it’s nice when characters/actors other than Harry/Dan get to shine.

Redbeard: Thanks. It’s fine. :)

GingerLibby: I’m not saying a critics comments are not relevant, I’m just saying that shouldn’t be the deciding factor on the quality of the movie. In the long run it’s the opinions of the general public that will matter most. Howard is really not near as beloved by critics as Cauron btw. Cauron is considered a director of art films while Howard directs more big budget titles for the most part.

In the film when Harry and Hermione return Ron asks what happened and they say “think he can handle it?” and start laughing. He gets exasperated and lays back down. That’s what I was referring to. Harry and Hermione would never make an intentionally demeaning comment towards Ron like that, unless they were angry at him which they were not at all. In the book they explain everything freely and have no problem letting him know but in the movie they act very clandestine about what they just did. I just honestly think there’s no scene in the entire set of movies more OOC than that.

Ron being a bit immature and insecure does not make him bumbling or stupid. Those traits can’t even really be connected, I think. In the books Ron says genuinely witty things often times and that’s usually why he’s funny. In the movies Ron is funny because the humor comes at his expense. That’s not on. Also, he actually handles things under pressure (well not schoolwork but dangerous things) better than Hermione generally. This trait is given to Hermione in the films and he’s left spazzing over things. This started way in movie one with the devil’s snare incident and continues in PoA pretty much… the entire movie. I agree that OotP is a far stronger presentation of his character. He’s pretty much canon!Ron in it.

Then of course there’s the infamous scene that gives Hermione one of Ron’s character defining lines in the SS.

Hermione was freaking out a great deal of the time turner scene in the book and she very much hates flying. Yes they did extend it! A lot. Additionally I don’t understand how Hermione being smart and resourceful means she’s canon true. There is a lot more to Hermione than that. Hermione is awkward, bookish, and even a tad socially awkward, and she’s quite insecure herself. She has a problem with breaking under pressure and is quite weepy. All of these imperfections are gone in the films, really. Has Hermione cried at all in the movies? I guess the Yule Brawl scene? Making one mistake in judgment doesn’t cover them.

I like to view the trio as equals but I do view Ron and Hermione as his sidekicks. Not because he’s “super Harry” but because he’s the lead character and they’re well, not.

Kelly: I apologize if I misunderstood your statement about critics opinions. It’s just that you said “the quality of the film should not be judged by box office grosses nor should it be judged by critics for that matter.” So, I think were both in agreement that popular appeal/box office and critical acclaim are relevant measures for films. I also agree that Ron Howard is not as much of an artsy director, but he is even more beloved by critics than Cuaron, as he has won Critic’s Choice Awards, Academy Awards, and awards from his own peers at the Director’s Guild.

Also, regardin what you said about Harry and Hermione’s line in PoA I popped in my DVD and watched the scene you are referring to and neither character ever says “think he can handle it?” So, if such a line were included it could be said, as you state, that “there’s no scene in the entire set of movies more OOC than that,” but as it was not included Cuaron and his actors did stay true to character in that respect. Nevertheless, while I do admire PoA I wholeheartedly agree that switching Hermione and Ron’s lines in the Shrieking Shack was a mistake and throughout all of films-not just PoA-Hermione’s awkwardness is not showcased enough. It’s best in SS/PS, but especially off in GoF. However, it was nice that in SS/PS that each member of the trio triumphed in one of the obstacles set by the teachers: Hermione figured out the Devil’s Snare (we don’t even get to see her successfully figuring out Snape’s potions riddle), Ron helped with Chess, and Harry flew his broom to catch the key.

Finally, I agree that Harry is the lead character and should be shown as such. I just was saying that I personally enjoy when his two friends get some of the limelight. In fact, I wish some of the adult characters/actors were showcased more in the films. Oh well, in the end the HP fandom is filled with so many unique individuals whose imaginations are free to create a diverse array of visions for the books that the movies can never live up to everyone’s ideals. I try to find the best in all of them and give the filmmakers the benefit of the doubt, which is exactly what I plan on doing for DH.

GingerLibby: About Howard. I mean that his ratio of critically acclaimed films vs. not acclaimed films is not as good as Cauron’s. He’s made some great films that have garnered a lot of awards, but he’s made some that have been pretty strongly disliked by critics (i.e. Davinci Code and How the Grinch Stole Christmas). Cauron has a more consistent track record.

I don’t have PoA on dvd (I have one, two, and five), so I’m sorry if I got the exact quote wrong but the scene’s there, even without the exact wording. It’s when Hermione and Harry come back from their mission and Ron asks what’s up, and then extended upon a bit when Ron is confused about the firebolt and they share a furtive smile as they look at Buckbeak’s feather. That means they still haven’t told him what happened at that time?

As for Hermione’s awkwardness yes I agree it’s been a problem in all of the movies. However, I felt she was better in the first two. She came across much more the “insufferable know it all” (in the most loving way possible) that we’ve come to love in the books. I know her glamorousness was mentioned early on, and while I don’t think movie!Hermione is glamorous perse I do think they prettied her up a bit too much in PoA and beyond. In the first two movies they at least attempted the Hermione hair, for example.

I enjoy when his friends get the limelight as well, believe me. I just want it to be equal, and not just Hermione getting the limelight. And I agree the PS was the movie that did this best.

I am very happy with the way David Yates did OOP. The movies will never be as good as the books but he did a wonderful job. I too was very unhappy with PoA, my favorite book but least favorite movie. If Del Toro is of the Cuaron school, he needs to leave DH alone.

GingerLibby: Sorry, I remembered the original scene. I was thinking of the dialogue in the online script, which is the one I read most recently. In the scene Ron is confused because they’d “just been there” (timeturner) and Hermione and Harry quip that they’ve been there the whole time and laugh. Ron is frustrated and flops down into bed. Pan to what must be at least a few days later, Harry gets the firebolt and Ron still doesn’t know what went down. My issues with the scene remain, and I think the one in the movie is actually worse.

I like the team of David Yates and Michael Goldenberg. IMHO OotP was the best HP movie yet made (close to the story),aside from PS, that introduced us to HP world. BUT whoever WB choses to writi and direct the last HP movie it has to be PERFECT and I agree with doublecore,HPDH, Harry’s last, must go out with a bang, it will break all boxoffice records (as been proven previously)

lol if I directed the movie I’d have changed the ending to be a bit more cinematic. (If anyone’s ever played Final Fantasy 10…the ending of that’s how I’d tackle the ending to Deathly Hallows) But meh….his opinion, I guess.

I’ve never been much of a fan of his work in the past but he seems to love the story, hopefully he’d do it justice.

A agree with Doublecore in so far as DH will break box office records no matter who is directing it as all fans will flock to see the last movie, good or bad, I hope its good for its own sake (as well as ours) so it will stand the test of time as a HP classic. Personally I hope its either Yates or new boy Del Toro, as have a feeling he can produce a cracker.

well, personally i think all recent directors did their job very well.columbus is the only one i couldn’t stand.but of course all of the others had their flaws too.and so i think it would be best if del toro would direct the last film. the more different directors the better.

David Yates should direct the last one. these stories are very Dickinson and envolve English school boys. I think Yates really had the feel for the attitude and idionscries of the mentality of the school system.

For those who didn’t like the way Ron and Hermione were shown in the PoA movie, I have news for you: in the books, Ron is basically the comic relief and Hermione is basically the smart one who tells the boys things that they are too dumb to figure out on their own. Nothing to be concerned about really.

And Hermione being proactive in the film is totally consistent with her character. If you listened to the latest podcast, you can hear JK Rowling saying that Hermione is not only smart but brave, and fights even though she has no taste for it, because of her inner courage. That’s pretty much what you see on screen. I’m not saying that just because Jo likes it, you should too; the point is that if you’re ragging on something because it’s not like her world, ask yourself how well you really know it—the spirit, not the letter. That’s what a director needs to figure out.

Sure, PoA has its problems—the ending goes on for too long, and with just a couple of lines of dialogue about the Marauders, the story arc would have been much more complete. Then when I think of OoTP, there isn’t a word about Umbridge sending the Dementors, and that’s the key to 80% of the story! It’s hard to get everything right, and if you ever try to adapt a long and complicated book for the screen, you’ll soon find that out for yourself.