In The News
Leaky Interview with GLAAD (The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation)
BooksSince Friday evening's revelation that Prof. Dumbledore is gay, we've seen a lot of confused and oftentimes hurtful response and commentary on the topic. So, we called up GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, an organization that works specifically with the representation of gay characters and people in media, to help clarify some of the issues and talk about what this fact about Dumbledore means for our culture. A transcript of our interview with Sean Lund, the organization's director of Messaging and Communication Srategy, follows.
(Please again be reminded that debate is welcome but disrespectful, name-calling, hateful comments are being routinely deleted.)
~*~
The Leaky Cauldron: Thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us. Can you tell us more about GLAAD and what you do?
Sean Lund: GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, is an organization that has at its core the fundamental understanding that words and images matter, that what people see in the media has a really important impact on how they view the people in the world around them and how they treat the people in the world around them.
I think we have a really great opportunity here to have a longer discussion about Prof. Dumbledore, about the characteristics and the qualiites that he embodies and to talk about the fact that one of the most beloved people in the Harry Potter series is gay.
TLC: What's the reaction been like for you?
SL: Most of the reaction that we've been hearing from folks as we've been talking about it with various media outlets has been very positive. We've seen, as I'm sure a number of your readers have, some of the message boards at The Leaky Cauldron and elsewhere that have been largely very supportive of J.K. Rowling's decision. There have been some of those who have seized on the opporutnity that the conversation provides to engage in some stereotypes and some slightly unkind behavior, but overall I think the conversation has been positive.
TLC: What do you think is the most important thing to urge people to remember as they are dealing with this revelation?
SL: I think it's important to remember that Prof. Dumbledore is exactly the same wise, loyal, kind character that those of us who have been reading the books have always known. He still embodies generosity and integrity and courage and the importance of protecting others. Just because he happens to be gay doesn't make him better and doesn't make him worse. It's just one of the parts of who that character is, which his exactly what being gay is in the real world: it's just a part of what makes each of us unique and each of us different.
TLC: One of the things we're noticing is that there are some real misconceptions out there about what it means when you say that somebody is gay. There is a bias toward, an unfortunate assumption that gay means other things, such as child molestation and pedophile. Is this common?
SL: I think any time you're dealing with the misconceptions and myths and stereotypes about gay people you tend to be coming from a place of ignorance or more commonly fear about what it is like to be gay. I think one of the most important messages of the Harry Potter books is how fear, whether it's fear of what's different, whether it's fear of losing power, whether it's fear of change, can lead people to do and say things that are at best unkind and at worst sometimes even dangerous.
Some of the comments that we've seen about Prof. Dumbledore and some of the other comments that we've seen over the past several days relating to this story have kind of crept into those areas of stereotypes and misconceptions, and I think that the really valuable thing that folks like you and other folks that are really Harry Potter fans and other folks in the media are doing, is really raising the level of conversation so that those stereotypes and myths aren't allowed to go unchallenged.
TLC: Can you remember a recent time when another fictional character has been revealed as gay that has had this kind of impact?
SL: I think that probably the one that springs to mind most readily is the character of Willow on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," back, I think it was probably about six years or so ago now when [the show's creator,] Joss Whedon, who revealed in a very gradual way and in a way incredibly authentic for that character that she was gay and introduced her girlfriend Tara, and the two of them became a really wonderful couple on that show. That was a really perfect exmaple of how to do this sort of storytelling and how to create these characters right. When you take a look at how the audience reacted to that, there was such an investment in those characters and in that relationship. The Willow and Tara relationship became in some ways the moral center of that show.
I think very much with how J.K. Rowling has brought Dumbledore out, I think that sort of quality of maintaining the authenticity and maintaining the truth of the character really goes a long way in terms of making sure people stay invested in those characters, and in fact that people could keep even more invested and feel like they have additional points of identification with those characters.
TLC: The Willow comparison also touches on something else - we've been getting a little backlash from gay people as well, who complain that it's yet another gay character killed or was lonely (Tara, Willow's girlfriend is shot in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"). Is this a common theme in gay culture as represented in the media?
SL: I think that we have definitely seen some of that criticism and I tend to think about the fact that for many people who have read these books since the very beginning - I happened to come in around the time book three was published - for many readers who are coming into these stories now, they are coming into a series of books where the character of Dumbledore will always have been known to be gay. There are other people who just finished the series with the release of Deathly Hallows who are now able to go back as readers have been doing since the books came out, and go back into the stories and view the characters through this new revelations that have been in the new book or in J.K. Rowling's recent interviews and really come to a deeper and richer understanding of these characters.
J.K. Rowling's revelations, could they possibly have happened in the books? I'm not sure, you'd have to ask her. What you'll see is that she set the stage for all readers of these books, be they those who have already finished them and those who have yet to pick up even the first book, to have a deeper and richer interaction with these characters.
TLC: This is the largest, most popular fantasy series of all time, this is a huge and respected character. To make not just any character but Dumbledore, the kind brilliant professor, Dumbledore, gay - is there any way to quantify what this means to the way that gay people have been portrayed in the media or accepted in culture?
SL: At the heart of GLAAD's initiative is a very simple idea, that words and images matter, and I think the idea that J.K. Rowling would reveal that Prof. Dumbledore is gay sends a tremendously important message. It sends a message that heroes and people who we respect, and people that we look up to, come in all different shapes and sizes. And I think for the readers of the books, for the people who will see the movies in the future, I think that's a tremendously important message for them to carry forward.
TLC: Some parents are dealing now with children who are confused about what it is to be gay, and there are children confused because they are taught that it's bad, and they don't want to believe their parents who say that it's bad. What do you suggest parents do, and what do you suggest children whose parents aren't willing to talk to them, do to understand what this means?
SL: I think a lot of that ties back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that a lot of these stereotypes and myths and misconceptions about gay people really are borne out of a lack of knowledge and more specifically a fear of things that are different and people that are different. I think that when you look back at the Harry Potter books, one of J.K. Rowlng's most important themes is about treating people with dignity and respect.
I think one of the most important themes of the Harry Potter books is J.K. Rowling's message about making sure that we treat all people, whether they are the same as us, or whether they are different than us, with dignity and respect. If you think about it, one of the central conceits of the books is that there are purebloods, and muggles and half-bloods, and there is constantly some conflict among those, particularly among those who fear and hate those who are different, and in one very vivid example of that, would call them mudbloods. That's the sort of unkind language, the sort of stereotypes and sort of misconceptions that really do lead people to mistreat and dehumanize others.
You think about Prof. Dumbledore. Even before any of us knew that Prof. Dumbledore was gay, I think that we can agree that his character would never have approved of mistreating or abusing others or thinking ill of others. Now that we know that he's gay I think it's a very important reminder that whether you're straight or gay or are in the process of figuring that out, being the kind of person who treats others with love and dignity and respect, who looks out for other people, who stands up for them, and who protects them, is really what being a good person and good friend is all about.
TLC: What do you think the overarching impact of this revelation will be on the culture going forward?
SL: When a character like Prof. Dumbledore is revealed to be gay I think it has a tremendously influential impact of readers of all ages. J.K. Rowling's decision to allow readers to see Dumbledore for all of who he is, and I think also as importantly, her determination to preserve the authenticity of his character both in the films and the books, is going to enrich the power of these stories for generations to come.
I think that this provides a really great opportunity to remind ourselves and for readers of the books to remind themselves about one of the key themes of the Harry Potter series, and that is how fear of what is different can really lead people to do things that are unkind or dangerous and also at the same time elevate the sort of person that people really want to be in terms of the way they treat others. When you hear someone on the playground say "You're so gay," or, "That's so gay," that's a word that they're using as an insult. They're trying to hurt another person and make themselves feel bigger by making other people feel smaller.
Even before Ms. Rowling revealed that Prof. Dumbledore was gay I can't imagine that his character would ever have approved of mistreating or abusing others. And now that we know he's gay it really is an especially important reminder that whether you're gay or straight, treating other people with dignity and respect really is one of the most important values that we all can share.
~*~
Interested in Books?
Sign up for free Email Alerts
Rachel -
Well said.
Leaky used to be a family site -not any more !
But until this thing blows over -my children are not allowed to access it.
Um, Linette….I haven’t seen anyone on here say that they hate Dumbledore. I am definitely not a Dumbledore hater at all. I think he is an intriguing and complex character, especially in light of Deathly Hallows and I love the Harry Potter series and continue to. I am just upset that a very controversial political issue has been thrown into this. The revelation that he has an attraction to the same sex does not change his character. I am not hateful nor am I intolerant. One can be respectful of a person for their humanity without supporting every belief they have and every action that they commit. Perhaps this is a case of different languages being spoken and as a result no honest and civil discourse can continue since one side is shrilling telling the other side that they are “hateful”, “intolerant”, “bigoted”, deserved to be kicked off, etc. Who is honestly being tolerant? Have I demeaned and “dehumanized” any of the people here who have disagreed with me? No,I don’t believe that I have (saying that I believe that certain actions are wrong IS NOT intolerant and yes I am entitled to believe that without being branded hateful and bigoted). The ones that I have seen on here that are bigoted are the ones who have been defensively saying, “hateful”, “intolerant”, “bigoted”, “you have no right to say that”, etc, etc. Who is being intolerant now?
Rachel. You are very right in a lot of respects, and I don’t approve of Elvine and people who fight for a side because they picked a side. But you are wrong in some respects:
“In the eyes of many gays..their whole identity is tied up…everything about themselves is tied up to the method and with who they have sex with. Again..just look at “gay pride” parades and tell me that it isn’t a “celebration” of the methods and who they have “sex” with..complete with bondage, s&m and every other kind of thing that I won’t get into because this is a family site.”
MOST gays identity is not completely tied up with who they are [attracted] to, and I don’t know why you should assume this from the group of them that are very loud and vocal. Pride parade is first and foremost a celebration of freedom. There are gays who are proud of all the sexual things you describe, just as there are heterosexuals who are publicly as well, and most of the gays are restricted to pride parades because of the intolerance of few. I don’t appreciate the need to be overly sexual in public, no matter your gender or attraction, but that is NOT what pride is all about, so fight for what you think is right, not fight against what is associated with what you think is wrong.
Alex, I should have mentioned that I do agree, JKR does not strike me as mean-spirited or petty in the least, and therefore wouldn’t have intentionally jabbed at Gambon.
Curiously, JKR strikes me (from the interviews on tv I’ve seen) as someone who is fundementally shy and private, and trying to cope with the tremendous amount of attention that has centered on her since the appearance of HP and the SS/PS. Clearly too she is sometimes torn between protecting her privacy (and that of her family members) while feeling a sense of—well, shall we call it responsibility or duty? (in the sense of John Calvin I would suggest!)—toward both her fans and her characters? The impression is of someone trying to balance and resolve all those factors…while facing a chrushing demand to meet publishers deadlines and the demands of her fans for more books, more interviews and more appearances…. I particularly applaud her decision to go to New Orleans during this tour, and to make an effort to reach out to those children who needed attention most.
I wonder if she will adopt a psuedonym to ensure her ‘adult’ works are seen as separate from her Harry Potter writings?
On a positive note, filming on HBP has started, and we have only 12 and 1/2 months to wait!
“Leaky used to be a family site -not any more!”
It’s very hard for people with little knowledge in the subject to separate gay emotion and intimacy. Heterosexuality has no problem separating emotion and intimacy, and most people show emotion in public and intimacy at home. And children recognize the emotion in their parents and individuals, but not the intimacy. The initial people who brought up intimacy as inseparable from emotion, and thus taking this away from a family site theme, were ignorant people. We’ve always known Dumbledore to be an emotional human being, not intimate. This revelation doesn’t change that, so it’s upsetting to see people think that it’s right to condemn him for his intimacy. And sad to think that children can’t make a distinction.
Alex,
I agree that there are gay people who do not identify soley with who and how they have sex with, but I do know of those who do (I have known some myself) and I also know that there are gay groups out there who go out of their way to mock my beliefs and descrate churches.ACT UP went into St. Patrick’s Cathedral in the 90’s, descrated it by throwing around condoms, spraying graffitti, etc. They were not charged with vandalism at all. The “sisters of perpetual indulgence” mockingly dress up as priests and nuns. They have disrupted Masses. In fact, some from ACT UP and the “sisters” have disrupted Masses just so they can spew some hatred toward Catholics. We get it all the time (in the media, schools, etc). Granted…granted….we have our own internal problems with sex abuse scandals, etc etc and a whole host of other things but it is a known fact that at these parades there is some terrible mockery of the Catholic faith. Have you seen the latest “poster” advertising these parades? Its a mockery of the Last Supper. Why is it that these “pride” parades must have open and terrible mockery of Catholic beliefs and practices? Is this what “gay pride” is all about? Ridiculing other people’s beliefs, mocking their customs, etc because they do not support every single thing that gays want everyone to support (gay marriage, their lifestyle, gay sex, etc)? Descrating their churches, disrupting their Masses? I can find links to stories validating all these stories I have said here but I don’t know if that will do any good since it seems that many on here will see absolutely nothing wrong with mocking religious beliefs..especially Catholics. It is perfectly acceptable in society today to ridicule and mock us. It gets very tiring..especially when we also have to deal with it within our own Church as well :( :(.
Poll on how you feel about the whole “Dumbledore is gay” thing. http://gloomygus.org/foruma/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=93
Alex,
I know the difference between emotion and intimacy and I do not condemn Dumbledore for this at all. I am however concerned the intolerance on this site and others for those who beliefs are different and who do not reflect society’s norms. That has been my point all along and some of the comments have proven that to me because they have been very, very defensive since I and some others on here do not support the gay lifestyle, etc. That does not make me intolerant. That does not make me bigoted, etc. I respect gay people as human beings. I can’t accept their lifestyle. You are proving my point that the lifestyle of homosexuals can not be separated from them as people. Hence the stupid comments I saw earlier from another poster saying that I and others are “de-humanizing” gays.
Rachel, I understand and I do think it is tiring to. As a Christian, I find it unfair to think it’s okay to mock and condemn christianity and christians because they have mocked and condemned people in the past/present. Leading by example is what I believe in.
As i said, this isn’t what gay pride is all about. But pride parades don’t have to have mockery of catholic beliefs and practices, that’s not what it is all about. I’m assuming you are very limited in your exposure of gay pride, but most of the flickr collections I have seen are fine, wonderful loving people not pushing any boundaries. This latest poster is advertising ONE parade, and you’ve only heard about it likely because a conservative-bias news group has pointed it out to you. I implore you, don’t get your information from conservative bias or from liberal bias. Get it from experiencing it and doing some research yourself.
Saying gay pride is all about mocking Catholicism is akin to saying Christianity is all about repressed homophobia and pedophiliac priest… Some people believe it, but it is flat wrong.
Alex,
I saw the poster on another site and I don’t see how it can be defensible. You must know that the SF parades have been notorious for this kind of thing. Again, we are mocked often by those who are into “gay pride” parades. I don’t believe everything I see in the press, etc..regardless of who I get it from. One reason why one of my favorite characters of the series is Luna Lovegood…lol…she thinks for herself which is what we all should do and get the facts right. I am not saying that all “gay pride” is about mocking Catholicism but…you have to admit that there is an element to it..at least in the parades….that does mock Catholicism. Otherwise, how do you explain the “sisters”?
Ok, again… There is a difference between intolerance of someone’s way of life, and intolerance of someone’s views on anyone elses way of life.
I know that many people can’t understand the difference, and I know I can’t change that. It really is very frustrating. Just remember that the world is larger than your own neighburhood. There is a whole continent looking at this debate in disbelief.
Get a grip, judgemental people.
Live your life the way you want, and let others do the same. Don’t ask them to hide just because it makes you unconfortable, though. That’s when you cross the line.
“Get a grip, judgemental people.”
Elvine, that does mean you too. No one is telling anyone to “hide”. And I believe you have crossed the line far to often on this site by attributing words to people who think differently than you that aren’t true. So, look in the mirror too. You have said some very judgemental things on here toward Christians, etc. Who is being intolerant now?
I just “love” being de-humanized as a “judgemental” person so that you can shut me up and anyone who has an opposing view to what you say. This is a very common and VERY tiring tactic.
Rachel, I don’t know where you think I have said this poster is defensible. I did not say so. Pride is.
I have to admit there is an element to pride that is mocking Catholicism. I don’t like it, I don’t approve. But if I have to admit it, you have to admit that there is an element to religion that believes in the elimination of atheists and ethnic cleansing and slavery. But I’m not attacking Catholicism based on those beliefs, so please don’t attack Pride based on mockery.
Ya know folks, of all viewponts:
I visit to site to discuss Harry Potter. There are numerous other sites to discuss sexuality, religion, tolerance or the lack of, civil liberties and a variety of other topics that do not include Harry Potter. May I respectfully request that either you all start talking about Harry Potter, or go elsewhere to discuss the issues which concern you?
My request has nothing to do with any viewpoints being expressed, simply with the lack of relevance of those viewpoints to the purpose of this site.
Alex,
point taken. I am a student of history and I do not have rose colored glasses on what my church has done in the past. We have been around for 2,000 years and unfortunately, bad stuff has happened in the past. This is not the forum to debate all those details though. I have attacked the gay pride parades because it is a very open form of expression that not everyone..especially families, etc don’t want their kids exposed to. Also, as a Catholic..I do have some specific beliefs about sexuality, etc (we are not against sex..just leting everyone know that because I know how that can bring up another can of worms). I am expressing them. I am deeply disturbed by the mockery of Catholicism. This mockery doesn’t help the discourse at all and I believe that you agree on this point too. So, what is to be done? What to do with the “sisters” on one side and..those who hate gays at every turn on the other? Both represent extremes on both sides. Perhaps its best to ignore them but unfortunately they scream loudly :(.
Budb,
your point is well taken. This is why I didn’t think it was necessarily prudent for LC to have interviewed GLAAD (remember, that was my original disagreement) to get their “take” on Dumbledore’s outing. As to this revelation, it would be interesting to explore how this obsessive infatuation with Grindelwald effected him as as character and on the plot as it is in the series.
Why do people oppose hearing what GLAAD have to say?
we can read/ see what the rest of the world thinks anywhere on the internet.
At least GLAAD are not breeding prejudice. Cuz well, you can’t even say you oppose the matter without sounding intolerant (because, actually it is intolerance (on principle))
Rachel, What is to be done is to take a position that is not so extremist. If it’s pride parades that concern you, go and volunteer and make your voice heard that you’d love to help them express their emotion, but have a problem with public intimacy. If they offer mocking catholicism, substitute something else less offensive. It’s something everyone should look at. Are my actions representative of everything I think is right and everything I think is wrong? Or am I cherry picking issues that show an untrue bias?
I’ve entered into these forums to try and present a medium point of view, to condemn far right and far left views and tactics. Because humanity IS the middleground.
Are people upset with Dumbledore because he is gay and celibate? Or are they more upset because the floodgates may open? Everyone should state their cases clearly, carefully, honestly and politely.
Sorry, comments are closed for this article.
Leaky Poll
Moving the HBP film to July 2009 is:
- Completely unforgivable82 (40%)
- Annoying, but I'll get over it78 (38%)
- Not something I care about.9 (4%)
- Cool; who wants to go to the movies in the winter anyway?4 (1%)
- Awesome! I get to save $10 until next year.13 (6%)
- Awesome! I get to save $10 because now I'm skipping this movie!9 (4%)
- I've made a Facebook group, started a protest, called my local councilman, staged a sit-in, started a boycott, and organized a million-fan march because we won't stand for the - wait, what was this about again?10 (4%)
This is unbelievable ! IMO anyone who liked Dumbledore when they thought he was straight, and now hate him because he is gay, is a hypocrite. I have a question for these hateful, intolerant people, now that Voldemort is gone I would imagine that your darkmark no longer burns, but does it itch? :) Also to Martha, I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.