In The News
Leaky Interview with GLAAD (The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation)
BooksSince Friday evening's revelation that Prof. Dumbledore is gay, we've seen a lot of confused and oftentimes hurtful response and commentary on the topic. So, we called up GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, an organization that works specifically with the representation of gay characters and people in media, to help clarify some of the issues and talk about what this fact about Dumbledore means for our culture. A transcript of our interview with Sean Lund, the organization's director of Messaging and Communication Srategy, follows.
(Please again be reminded that debate is welcome but disrespectful, name-calling, hateful comments are being routinely deleted.)
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The Leaky Cauldron: Thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us. Can you tell us more about GLAAD and what you do?
Sean Lund: GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, is an organization that has at its core the fundamental understanding that words and images matter, that what people see in the media has a really important impact on how they view the people in the world around them and how they treat the people in the world around them.
I think we have a really great opportunity here to have a longer discussion about Prof. Dumbledore, about the characteristics and the qualiites that he embodies and to talk about the fact that one of the most beloved people in the Harry Potter series is gay.
TLC: What's the reaction been like for you?
SL: Most of the reaction that we've been hearing from folks as we've been talking about it with various media outlets has been very positive. We've seen, as I'm sure a number of your readers have, some of the message boards at The Leaky Cauldron and elsewhere that have been largely very supportive of J.K. Rowling's decision. There have been some of those who have seized on the opporutnity that the conversation provides to engage in some stereotypes and some slightly unkind behavior, but overall I think the conversation has been positive.
TLC: What do you think is the most important thing to urge people to remember as they are dealing with this revelation?
SL: I think it's important to remember that Prof. Dumbledore is exactly the same wise, loyal, kind character that those of us who have been reading the books have always known. He still embodies generosity and integrity and courage and the importance of protecting others. Just because he happens to be gay doesn't make him better and doesn't make him worse. It's just one of the parts of who that character is, which his exactly what being gay is in the real world: it's just a part of what makes each of us unique and each of us different.
TLC: One of the things we're noticing is that there are some real misconceptions out there about what it means when you say that somebody is gay. There is a bias toward, an unfortunate assumption that gay means other things, such as child molestation and pedophile. Is this common?
SL: I think any time you're dealing with the misconceptions and myths and stereotypes about gay people you tend to be coming from a place of ignorance or more commonly fear about what it is like to be gay. I think one of the most important messages of the Harry Potter books is how fear, whether it's fear of what's different, whether it's fear of losing power, whether it's fear of change, can lead people to do and say things that are at best unkind and at worst sometimes even dangerous.
Some of the comments that we've seen about Prof. Dumbledore and some of the other comments that we've seen over the past several days relating to this story have kind of crept into those areas of stereotypes and misconceptions, and I think that the really valuable thing that folks like you and other folks that are really Harry Potter fans and other folks in the media are doing, is really raising the level of conversation so that those stereotypes and myths aren't allowed to go unchallenged.
TLC: Can you remember a recent time when another fictional character has been revealed as gay that has had this kind of impact?
SL: I think that probably the one that springs to mind most readily is the character of Willow on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," back, I think it was probably about six years or so ago now when [the show's creator,] Joss Whedon, who revealed in a very gradual way and in a way incredibly authentic for that character that she was gay and introduced her girlfriend Tara, and the two of them became a really wonderful couple on that show. That was a really perfect exmaple of how to do this sort of storytelling and how to create these characters right. When you take a look at how the audience reacted to that, there was such an investment in those characters and in that relationship. The Willow and Tara relationship became in some ways the moral center of that show.
I think very much with how J.K. Rowling has brought Dumbledore out, I think that sort of quality of maintaining the authenticity and maintaining the truth of the character really goes a long way in terms of making sure people stay invested in those characters, and in fact that people could keep even more invested and feel like they have additional points of identification with those characters.
TLC: The Willow comparison also touches on something else - we've been getting a little backlash from gay people as well, who complain that it's yet another gay character killed or was lonely (Tara, Willow's girlfriend is shot in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"). Is this a common theme in gay culture as represented in the media?
SL: I think that we have definitely seen some of that criticism and I tend to think about the fact that for many people who have read these books since the very beginning - I happened to come in around the time book three was published - for many readers who are coming into these stories now, they are coming into a series of books where the character of Dumbledore will always have been known to be gay. There are other people who just finished the series with the release of Deathly Hallows who are now able to go back as readers have been doing since the books came out, and go back into the stories and view the characters through this new revelations that have been in the new book or in J.K. Rowling's recent interviews and really come to a deeper and richer understanding of these characters.
J.K. Rowling's revelations, could they possibly have happened in the books? I'm not sure, you'd have to ask her. What you'll see is that she set the stage for all readers of these books, be they those who have already finished them and those who have yet to pick up even the first book, to have a deeper and richer interaction with these characters.
TLC: This is the largest, most popular fantasy series of all time, this is a huge and respected character. To make not just any character but Dumbledore, the kind brilliant professor, Dumbledore, gay - is there any way to quantify what this means to the way that gay people have been portrayed in the media or accepted in culture?
SL: At the heart of GLAAD's initiative is a very simple idea, that words and images matter, and I think the idea that J.K. Rowling would reveal that Prof. Dumbledore is gay sends a tremendously important message. It sends a message that heroes and people who we respect, and people that we look up to, come in all different shapes and sizes. And I think for the readers of the books, for the people who will see the movies in the future, I think that's a tremendously important message for them to carry forward.
TLC: Some parents are dealing now with children who are confused about what it is to be gay, and there are children confused because they are taught that it's bad, and they don't want to believe their parents who say that it's bad. What do you suggest parents do, and what do you suggest children whose parents aren't willing to talk to them, do to understand what this means?
SL: I think a lot of that ties back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that a lot of these stereotypes and myths and misconceptions about gay people really are borne out of a lack of knowledge and more specifically a fear of things that are different and people that are different. I think that when you look back at the Harry Potter books, one of J.K. Rowlng's most important themes is about treating people with dignity and respect.
I think one of the most important themes of the Harry Potter books is J.K. Rowling's message about making sure that we treat all people, whether they are the same as us, or whether they are different than us, with dignity and respect. If you think about it, one of the central conceits of the books is that there are purebloods, and muggles and half-bloods, and there is constantly some conflict among those, particularly among those who fear and hate those who are different, and in one very vivid example of that, would call them mudbloods. That's the sort of unkind language, the sort of stereotypes and sort of misconceptions that really do lead people to mistreat and dehumanize others.
You think about Prof. Dumbledore. Even before any of us knew that Prof. Dumbledore was gay, I think that we can agree that his character would never have approved of mistreating or abusing others or thinking ill of others. Now that we know that he's gay I think it's a very important reminder that whether you're straight or gay or are in the process of figuring that out, being the kind of person who treats others with love and dignity and respect, who looks out for other people, who stands up for them, and who protects them, is really what being a good person and good friend is all about.
TLC: What do you think the overarching impact of this revelation will be on the culture going forward?
SL: When a character like Prof. Dumbledore is revealed to be gay I think it has a tremendously influential impact of readers of all ages. J.K. Rowling's decision to allow readers to see Dumbledore for all of who he is, and I think also as importantly, her determination to preserve the authenticity of his character both in the films and the books, is going to enrich the power of these stories for generations to come.
I think that this provides a really great opportunity to remind ourselves and for readers of the books to remind themselves about one of the key themes of the Harry Potter series, and that is how fear of what is different can really lead people to do things that are unkind or dangerous and also at the same time elevate the sort of person that people really want to be in terms of the way they treat others. When you hear someone on the playground say "You're so gay," or, "That's so gay," that's a word that they're using as an insult. They're trying to hurt another person and make themselves feel bigger by making other people feel smaller.
Even before Ms. Rowling revealed that Prof. Dumbledore was gay I can't imagine that his character would ever have approved of mistreating or abusing others. And now that we know he's gay it really is an especially important reminder that whether you're gay or straight, treating other people with dignity and respect really is one of the most important values that we all can share.
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Actually, KB, if it was Dawlish that she said was gay I really wouldn’t care because Dawlish doesn’t mean anything to me as a character (Sorry John).
Dumbledore does. He is a fascinating character and a key one. He is a guy you root for and can sometimes identify with. As you read the book you pause sometimes and think “This guy is awesome.” Being gay takes the magic away from the character for me. (No pun intended).
Now, when I read about some incredibly crafty plan Dumbledore has brought to fruition I am going pause and thing “This guy is awesome!” but the next thought is going to be “but he’s gay, gross.” It’s not the same effect.
My objection to this news is because of religious reasons, or some ridiculous sense of moral superiority, it’s simply the ‘yuck’ factor will forever change how I read the story. The story hasn’t changed, but sadly my perception of it does. I’ll never again be able to see Dumbledore the way Harry does.
GLADD gets no respect from me because of the ridiculous way they act in the media spotlight. Attacking every famous person who dares to not agree with homosexuality and demanding public apology is petty and childish. Forcing their chosen way of life onto a public that does not want to hear about it is WRONG.
Bringing GLADD to the front page of Leaky just strikes a sour note for me. It sort of politicizes the whole thing which is something I have never seen here.
D’oh! I meant to say it IS NOT because of religious reasons, or some ridiculous sense of moral superiority.
For the final time, because the first six times weren’t enough:
“This is why I didn’t think it was necessarily prudent for LC to have interviewed GLAAD (remember, that was my original disagreement) to get their “take” on Dumbledore’s outing.”
We did not interview GLAAD to get its “take,” I repeat. No one’s wondering whether GLAAD is happy with this news or not. That’s fairly obvious that they are. We interviewed an organization experienced in dealing with homosexual images and words in media, on how to handle the revelation responsibly.
We are not interviewing someone who is against the outing because this wasn’t an interview arguing FOR the outing. The outing happened. We are not trying to determine whether it was right or not to do – that’s not our job. J.K. Rowling said he was gay, and we’re not arguing whether it was OK for her to do that. It’s the view of this site (and JKR) that they’re her characters, and she has the right to nkow what she knows and say what she says about them. To argue whether it was OK for her to reveal this in any place other than the comments (and notice it’s off topic but we’re still allowing it to go on), please go elsewhere. It’s not being featured on this site.
I hope that clears it up and beg you to refer to this post the next time someone asks for an opposing viewpoint. YET again: If you can find an opposing viewpoint to Mr. Lund’s that is still about how to handle this information responsibly, and NOT about whether it was OK to reveal or whether it’s OK that Dumbledore is gay, do let us know.
Thanks guys :)
Melissa
Wizengamut—Awww…bless her little heart and yours. Thank you for sharing! :)
Melissa,
I concede your point. I know it was not your intention to present a pro or con viewpoint on information revealed about Dumbledore’s sexual identity. Myself and some others have expressed that they wished you had gone to someone else other than GLAAD. I don’t know if there is someone else..perhaps one could be found but that has been my only complaint about this. As to how to handle this information responsibly…these are fictional characters with many motivations for their actions. What is going to be thrilling, I hope, is that since all 7 books have come out, we can now dig deep into the depth that is in the Harry Potter series. There has been a lot of literary interpretation for over 10 years now but it has been lacking due to the obvious fact that we didn’t have all the information. Much of the discussion was more about speculation, predictions (who is going to die? who is going to be shipped with who…and so on), etc and not rigorous literary interpretation. Athough there are those in the academic world who see this series as fluff and not worthy of deep insights, myself and I’m sure there are tons of other fans out there who believe that the Harry Potter series is worthy of deep, thoughtful, and rigorous academic or just plain thought provoking interpretations and discussions. JK Rowling deals with many serious issues involving every facet of human life and society on a physical, emotional, psychological, and spiritual level. I look forward to some thoughtful discussion about the series itself and hopefully the level of discourse will be lively, civil, and thought provoking. Afterall, LOTR has been out for over 40 years and fans of that series still discuss the books, exploring every possible facet of the triology and the other books associated with it. I believe that the HP series can very well endure many years into the future. Only time will see :)
I need to address Rachel… something she has talked about over and over… and I’m sorry that it’s not about the books… but I have to set this clear for anyone that might read (even if it IS 2 pages away.
First off. That poster you saw wasn’t for a gay pride parade. It was for a leather / fetish gathering. And although the poster did feature some gay people… and even though the gathering does have quite a few gay attendees, it is not a “gay” organized event.
In addition, both Act Up and “the sisters” are not a very good representation of gay people either. And if you read the interview, it specifically talks about peoples perceptions and stereotypes. These are perfect examples of bad stereotypes and things that give us gay people a bad image. I can tell you this. If you added up all the people ever involved with both groups, it wouldn’t even begin to be 0.001% of the current, living, gay population…
You may not see us… but there are average gay men and women living, working, playing, and most likely even worshipping around you every day! The reason you don’t see us, well, see us as “gay” is because you have this image in your head of what we are. But I can assure you… you deal with at least 1 gay person (whether you see them as gay or not) in your life on a daily basis. Most likely someone you love dearly is gay.
I’m not putting your beliefs or anything about you down. I’m not being negative. I just needed to correct some of the things you have been told and some of the things you have seen and believed to be a reputable example.
I’m sorry that this revelation may have destroyed some of your love for either the character or the books… but as the interview said… this is a very good example of what happens in real life…. and what can happen when someone comes out.
And we wonder why the suicide rate is so high among gay people…
And just to make this post valid for this site… and this may have already been discussed… but… How do you think the wizarding world, as imagined by JKR, would deal with such a known celebrity (as Dumbledore would be the equiv to one on their world) coming out? Do you think it would even be an issue?
Michael,
I believe that if you had read all of my posts you would have seen that I have said that not all gay people are like the “sisters”, etc. I know that there are gay people all around. I have worked with them and I have been friends with them. I do not hate gays. Thank you for your corrections though (especially in regards to the “sisters”). The revelation that Dumbledore is gay did not diminish his character nor the series in my eyes. I thought that this added another layer to his motivations and his past actions (especially as a young man). As for as how would the wizarding world react to this revelation…to be honest..I don’t think they would have taken it any better than many have now. What has been disturbing to me is the media’s reaction. As usual, they have to act like the Rita Skeeters that they are. Geesh, this isn’t a huge story and yet they had it all over the news, etc. The headline was right up there with the SoCal fires. Ugh, I’m more disgusted with the media and their reaction but then again..when are we not disgusted with them. They blow things out of proportion everytime and can’t get simple facts right. I agree on JK Rowling about distrusting the media and refusing to believe more than 90% of what they tell you. Chances are..they will get it wrong.
Roger writes: “My objection to this news is because of religious reasons, or some ridiculous sense of moral superiority, it’s simply the ‘yuck’ factor will forever change how I read the story. The story hasn’t changed, but sadly my perception of it does. I’ll never again be able to see Dumbledore the way Harry does.” I know, right? Old people having sex… that’s just so yuck! I was never able to see my grandparents in the same light after I figured out THEY had sex. Ew.
“Now, when I read about some incredibly crafty plan Dumbledore has brought to fruition I am going pause and thing “This guy is awesome!” but the next thought is going to be “but he’s gay, gross.” It’s not the same effect.” Wow, it’s not that big of a deal. I challenge you to reorganize what you think is important if someone’s sexuality is always popping into your head when you think of them. I hope for your friends sake that none of them are gay because of how you would consider them. Many of the people in these forums have quickly looked past Dumbledore’s sexuality, and hopefully one day you will too for EVERYONE on this planet.
Roger said -
GLADD gets no respect from me because of the ridiculous way they act in the media spotlight. Attacking every famous person who dares to not agree with homosexuality and demanding public apology is petty and childish. Forcing their chosen way of life onto a public that does not want to hear about it is WRONG. Bringing GLADD to the front page of Leaky just strikes a sour note for me. It sort of politicizes the whole thing which is something I have never seen here.
Melissa’s reply attempts to neatly avoid the point of your post. Simply look at the conclusion of the GLAAD interview. If thats not propoganda -what is.
And they got the chance to do it on the pages of The Leaky Cauldron !
To be honest, this has saddened our family and we don’t agree. It’s ruined the books for us because as Christian’s this is against our belief system. I certainly won’t be seeing any of the rest of the movies or encouraging my own children to read these novels. It’s sad really that it was spoiled like this. I tried quite hard to ignore the Church’s teaching on these books and their insinuations that they promoted such behavior. So sad, really.
It is sad that you will not encourage your children to read these novels because of this, but I understand that you must do what you think is right for your kids. On the bright side I guess there will be one less person to stand inline behind when the next movie comes out, lol.
Former Potter Fan, I’m sad for you too, especially since the books have EXACTLY THE SAME CONTENT that they had before Jo answered that particular question.
Apparently, witchcraft is considered at least as sinful in that same Bible you refer to as homosexuality but for some reason, people with those beliefs were willing to overlook that MAJOR part of it…and a few other things that SAME Bible teaches. I would appreciate it if someone could explain this to me so that I can understand why it is not hypocrisy.
I am a Christian so it’s safe to say that I’m not happy at the revelation that Dumbledore was gay, but Truely and Honestly that does not make him a bad person. He still holds all the wonderful loving pure qualities he held before. I still love and admire him and he will Always be my favourite character. My mum is a homosexual and that is something our family has had to come to terms with but what i always remember is that God is LOVE not hate! I still believe that being gay is wrong but the people who are gay aren’t sick or evil, they are just like you and me. Love is what’s important :) So be kind, be wise and spread some!
Yes, it is the same content except that I believe that Homosexuality is a SIN. Witchcraft and MAGIC are NOT REAL. No one can cast spells and such. It’s to me a fantasy world and therefore I see no issue with it.
On the other hand, I believe that Homosexuality is not something that I want to expose to my children. There is no hypocrisy unless you believe that there truly are people who can cast spells - then you need a psychiatrist.
Incidentally Zee, I’m curious why you feel that I MUST for some reason accept that it is okay for a child’s book to contain references to homosexuality. I have a right to an opinion as do you. In an adult work that is your choice.
To be quite honest, I would have preferred long ago to know this fact. Why? Because it is our belief that this alternate life style is not acceptable. I have a right to that opinion and a right to shield my YOUNG children from such information. There is no reason for anyone, JK included, to force their own agenda down our throats. I would not do so to hers or your children about my own beliefs. To each their own. That is OUR choice.
Thanks Melissa and TLC for this interview!
I agree with Sean when he says that “treating other people with dignity and respect really is one of the most important values that we all can share”.
We don’t have to like everybody or agree with everybody but we should treat them with respect. I think that’s one of the biggest and most present values in the HP series and this “revelation” only stress that message.
And thanks to Jo!!
Apart from the fact that these books are not strictly children’s books, AND the fact that they DON’T infact contain homosexuality, it could just as easily be argued ‘why should a children’s book contain references to ANY sexuality?’
The answer would be that the world is full of heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual and asexual people – so why would they not also exist in the literary world?
By all means have an opinion, no one here said you couldn’t. But why should any author write their books according to YOUR specific beliefs? Why is it that your beliefs are your opinion, but JK Rowling’s beliefs are an ‘agenda’ that’s she supposedly trying to force down your throat?
JK Rowling’s Fantasy is not a fantasy for those with right-wing ideals about whose existence can be acknowledged and whose can’t.
Btw, if witchcraft and magic are not real, what are they doing in the bible? Why would there be specific passages in the bible calling them sinful if they weren’t even real? You’re not saying that ‘God’s word’ contains elements of things that don’t exist, are you?
Let me tell you, witchcraft is very much real, and is practiced in many parts of the world to varying degrees. But then that depends on how much of the rest of the world you’re familar with, as opposed to remaining insular, ergo oblivious to other cultures and belief systems.
Maybe the main problem here is that what is written in the bible can be interpreted in so many different ways that people have began to pick and choose which bits they hold dear, and which bits they can dismiss as “not real”.
Lastly,
The answer would be that the world is full of heterosexual, homosexual, bi-sexual and asexual people – so why would they not also exist in the literary world? Exactly Zee!
And that, I think, is the best discussion you could have with your children—a time to open the discussion in your house so children have an opportunity to hear your viewpoint and not hear things on the street and getting wrong information from others. (See my post at top of this page)
anotherweasley, thanks, I’m VERY proud of her too!
Witchcraft is NOT REAL. People may “practice it” but honey it does NOT WORK. If I could learn to cast a spell, you’d better believe things would be a lot different. There are a lot of delusional people out there….
As far as the Bible, yes there are things in there that aren’t strictly real. There was no Ark, etc.
And these have been parlayed as CHILDREN’S BOOKS! I would have preferred that I not be lied to or “mislead.” I do NOT choose to allow my children to discuss these topics at this point just because the likes or you or JK Rowling want to promote a certain agenda. I do not HAVE to accept this “alternate” life style and neither does anyone else!
Sorry, comments are closed for this article.
Leaky Poll
Moving the HBP film to July 2009 is:
- Completely unforgivable82 (40%)
- Annoying, but I'll get over it78 (38%)
- Not something I care about.9 (4%)
- Cool; who wants to go to the movies in the winter anyway?4 (1%)
- Awesome! I get to save $10 until next year.13 (6%)
- Awesome! I get to save $10 because now I'm skipping this movie!9 (4%)
- I've made a Facebook group, started a protest, called my local councilman, staged a sit-in, started a boycott, and organized a million-fan march because we won't stand for the - wait, what was this about again?10 (4%)
I had an interesting conversation with my 8 year old daughter tonight about Dumbledore and who he loved. I told her that something new was revealed a couple of days ago about Dumbledore that we didn’t know before. I told her that JKR gave a reading and one person asked a question about who Dumbledore loved.. and I told her it was Grindewald. She looked at me for a moment and said—but Mom, he’s a boy. I said yes he is. And then she said but Dumbledore is a boy. And I said yes he is. And then she said that’s neat, did they love each other a lot? And I said I guess so because it broke Dumbledore’s heart. And then I told her that’s OK to love whoever you want to love and Dumbledore chose someone that made his heart happy even though he got hurt later. And she smiled the biggest smile and then asked me if I could read her that part again in the book.
And that is how you tell your children about Dumbledore being gay :) :)