In The News
Leaky Interview with GLAAD (The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation)
BooksSince Friday evening's revelation that Prof. Dumbledore is gay, we've seen a lot of confused and oftentimes hurtful response and commentary on the topic. So, we called up GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, an organization that works specifically with the representation of gay characters and people in media, to help clarify some of the issues and talk about what this fact about Dumbledore means for our culture. A transcript of our interview with Sean Lund, the organization's director of Messaging and Communication Srategy, follows.
(Please again be reminded that debate is welcome but disrespectful, name-calling, hateful comments are being routinely deleted.)
~*~
The Leaky Cauldron: Thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us. Can you tell us more about GLAAD and what you do?
Sean Lund: GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, is an organization that has at its core the fundamental understanding that words and images matter, that what people see in the media has a really important impact on how they view the people in the world around them and how they treat the people in the world around them.
I think we have a really great opportunity here to have a longer discussion about Prof. Dumbledore, about the characteristics and the qualiites that he embodies and to talk about the fact that one of the most beloved people in the Harry Potter series is gay.
TLC: What's the reaction been like for you?
SL: Most of the reaction that we've been hearing from folks as we've been talking about it with various media outlets has been very positive. We've seen, as I'm sure a number of your readers have, some of the message boards at The Leaky Cauldron and elsewhere that have been largely very supportive of J.K. Rowling's decision. There have been some of those who have seized on the opporutnity that the conversation provides to engage in some stereotypes and some slightly unkind behavior, but overall I think the conversation has been positive.
TLC: What do you think is the most important thing to urge people to remember as they are dealing with this revelation?
SL: I think it's important to remember that Prof. Dumbledore is exactly the same wise, loyal, kind character that those of us who have been reading the books have always known. He still embodies generosity and integrity and courage and the importance of protecting others. Just because he happens to be gay doesn't make him better and doesn't make him worse. It's just one of the parts of who that character is, which his exactly what being gay is in the real world: it's just a part of what makes each of us unique and each of us different.
TLC: One of the things we're noticing is that there are some real misconceptions out there about what it means when you say that somebody is gay. There is a bias toward, an unfortunate assumption that gay means other things, such as child molestation and pedophile. Is this common?
SL: I think any time you're dealing with the misconceptions and myths and stereotypes about gay people you tend to be coming from a place of ignorance or more commonly fear about what it is like to be gay. I think one of the most important messages of the Harry Potter books is how fear, whether it's fear of what's different, whether it's fear of losing power, whether it's fear of change, can lead people to do and say things that are at best unkind and at worst sometimes even dangerous.
Some of the comments that we've seen about Prof. Dumbledore and some of the other comments that we've seen over the past several days relating to this story have kind of crept into those areas of stereotypes and misconceptions, and I think that the really valuable thing that folks like you and other folks that are really Harry Potter fans and other folks in the media are doing, is really raising the level of conversation so that those stereotypes and myths aren't allowed to go unchallenged.
TLC: Can you remember a recent time when another fictional character has been revealed as gay that has had this kind of impact?
SL: I think that probably the one that springs to mind most readily is the character of Willow on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," back, I think it was probably about six years or so ago now when [the show's creator,] Joss Whedon, who revealed in a very gradual way and in a way incredibly authentic for that character that she was gay and introduced her girlfriend Tara, and the two of them became a really wonderful couple on that show. That was a really perfect exmaple of how to do this sort of storytelling and how to create these characters right. When you take a look at how the audience reacted to that, there was such an investment in those characters and in that relationship. The Willow and Tara relationship became in some ways the moral center of that show.
I think very much with how J.K. Rowling has brought Dumbledore out, I think that sort of quality of maintaining the authenticity and maintaining the truth of the character really goes a long way in terms of making sure people stay invested in those characters, and in fact that people could keep even more invested and feel like they have additional points of identification with those characters.
TLC: The Willow comparison also touches on something else - we've been getting a little backlash from gay people as well, who complain that it's yet another gay character killed or was lonely (Tara, Willow's girlfriend is shot in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"). Is this a common theme in gay culture as represented in the media?
SL: I think that we have definitely seen some of that criticism and I tend to think about the fact that for many people who have read these books since the very beginning - I happened to come in around the time book three was published - for many readers who are coming into these stories now, they are coming into a series of books where the character of Dumbledore will always have been known to be gay. There are other people who just finished the series with the release of Deathly Hallows who are now able to go back as readers have been doing since the books came out, and go back into the stories and view the characters through this new revelations that have been in the new book or in J.K. Rowling's recent interviews and really come to a deeper and richer understanding of these characters.
J.K. Rowling's revelations, could they possibly have happened in the books? I'm not sure, you'd have to ask her. What you'll see is that she set the stage for all readers of these books, be they those who have already finished them and those who have yet to pick up even the first book, to have a deeper and richer interaction with these characters.
TLC: This is the largest, most popular fantasy series of all time, this is a huge and respected character. To make not just any character but Dumbledore, the kind brilliant professor, Dumbledore, gay - is there any way to quantify what this means to the way that gay people have been portrayed in the media or accepted in culture?
SL: At the heart of GLAAD's initiative is a very simple idea, that words and images matter, and I think the idea that J.K. Rowling would reveal that Prof. Dumbledore is gay sends a tremendously important message. It sends a message that heroes and people who we respect, and people that we look up to, come in all different shapes and sizes. And I think for the readers of the books, for the people who will see the movies in the future, I think that's a tremendously important message for them to carry forward.
TLC: Some parents are dealing now with children who are confused about what it is to be gay, and there are children confused because they are taught that it's bad, and they don't want to believe their parents who say that it's bad. What do you suggest parents do, and what do you suggest children whose parents aren't willing to talk to them, do to understand what this means?
SL: I think a lot of that ties back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that a lot of these stereotypes and myths and misconceptions about gay people really are borne out of a lack of knowledge and more specifically a fear of things that are different and people that are different. I think that when you look back at the Harry Potter books, one of J.K. Rowlng's most important themes is about treating people with dignity and respect.
I think one of the most important themes of the Harry Potter books is J.K. Rowling's message about making sure that we treat all people, whether they are the same as us, or whether they are different than us, with dignity and respect. If you think about it, one of the central conceits of the books is that there are purebloods, and muggles and half-bloods, and there is constantly some conflict among those, particularly among those who fear and hate those who are different, and in one very vivid example of that, would call them mudbloods. That's the sort of unkind language, the sort of stereotypes and sort of misconceptions that really do lead people to mistreat and dehumanize others.
You think about Prof. Dumbledore. Even before any of us knew that Prof. Dumbledore was gay, I think that we can agree that his character would never have approved of mistreating or abusing others or thinking ill of others. Now that we know that he's gay I think it's a very important reminder that whether you're straight or gay or are in the process of figuring that out, being the kind of person who treats others with love and dignity and respect, who looks out for other people, who stands up for them, and who protects them, is really what being a good person and good friend is all about.
TLC: What do you think the overarching impact of this revelation will be on the culture going forward?
SL: When a character like Prof. Dumbledore is revealed to be gay I think it has a tremendously influential impact of readers of all ages. J.K. Rowling's decision to allow readers to see Dumbledore for all of who he is, and I think also as importantly, her determination to preserve the authenticity of his character both in the films and the books, is going to enrich the power of these stories for generations to come.
I think that this provides a really great opportunity to remind ourselves and for readers of the books to remind themselves about one of the key themes of the Harry Potter series, and that is how fear of what is different can really lead people to do things that are unkind or dangerous and also at the same time elevate the sort of person that people really want to be in terms of the way they treat others. When you hear someone on the playground say "You're so gay," or, "That's so gay," that's a word that they're using as an insult. They're trying to hurt another person and make themselves feel bigger by making other people feel smaller.
Even before Ms. Rowling revealed that Prof. Dumbledore was gay I can't imagine that his character would ever have approved of mistreating or abusing others. And now that we know he's gay it really is an especially important reminder that whether you're gay or straight, treating other people with dignity and respect really is one of the most important values that we all can share.
~*~
Interested in Books?
Sign up for free Email Alerts
KB Prez: I am touched by your humanity. The world is a better place when it is filled with people like you. All the best.
@emerald:I’m christian and i have no problem with homosexuals or anyone else. so don’t speak for every christian that’s not your place.
right you are celia!! i’m not religious at all and i don’t hope i insulted you but just wanted to say that they hide behind it but don’t believe at all.
Okay, i got you. that’s what i meant when i said that. those people annoy me sooo much. but like umbridge said, “Deep down they know they deserve to be punished.” hehehe.
I am a Roman Catholic, and the revelation that Dumbledore is gay has not fazed me at all. True, the OLD Testament of my Bible claims that it is wrong, and sinful, but the NEW Testament has the words, “Love one another as I have loved you”.
Sadly, sometimes prejudices are inherited with beliefs. It makes me feel extremely disappointed and frustrated that people focus on one little part of the Bible. If that is the case, my dear right-wing Christians, why on earth do you read Harry Potter? The Old Testament says, “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live”.
But again, this is all from the OLD TESTAMENT. Evolve your beliefs, learn some tolerance and realise that hatred and anger in this issue will not resolve anything, or make you feel any happier.
I think Dumbledore is all the more interesting now that I know he is/was gay, and as a previous, very insightful, poster mentioned, Dumbledore would have suffered for his orientation due to the time in which he lived. This has coloured his tolerance, influenced how he treats people and overall made him the person he was when we read the books and all thought he was completely brilliant. It shows just WHY the man was so compassionate, so resolute and indeed, so Machiavellian.
If Dumbledore were straight, would he be the great wizard he grew to be? Or would he have been stuck at home taking care of his poor sister all his life, married and never risen to be the greatest headmaster of Hogwarts?
Dumbledore never gave up, even on the people society turned their backs on. He never once stopped believing that love would be what would overcome the evil in Riddle’s soul, and it was love that made him trust Severus Snape.
This is similar to Christ, who helped Mary Magdalene, who healed the lepers, and never once judged people for what they’ve done, or what they are, but loved them for who they are!
You Christians, learn to be more like your Christ and treat people with dignity and tolerance!
I am proud to be a non-bigoted Catholic, proud to support Dumbledore, and proud to support JK Rowling for giving us Harry Potter, Dumbledore and all the others.
Superb Leaky, really superb. It makes me very proud to be a Harry Potter fan when you guys conduct this kind of insightful, intelligent and sensitive interview. It’s journalism of an exceptionally high standard and I’m incredibly impressed. Thank you Sean, thank you Melissa.
“To me there is ‘another side’ of the argument that has already been touched on, but I want to mention again and that is: once the book has been written and published it takes on a life of its own. It has grown up and moved away from home. Its parent, the author, needs to let go and move on.”
I’m with you, SeaJay. I see lots of evidence for Dumbledore being in love with Grindelwald in DH, but I think it was important that we knew that and that it should have been clear in the book. Dumbledore’s relationship with Grindelwald sheds light on a lot of his actions, just like Snape’s relationship with Lily sheds light on a lot of his actions. Did JKR leave the question of whether Snape loved Lily up for debate? No, because it was important. Dumbledore is as important as Snape and his past was a large part of DH, especially the whole summer with Grindelwald.
It really wouldn’t have been that hard to add one little thing that let us know that Dumbledore was in love with Grindelwald. I wrote up a little possible scenario. Dumbledore and Harry are in that afterlife train station:
“I was frustrated with my family responsibilities,” Dumbledore said. “I was desperate to feel as important as I had at school, I was taken with Grindelwald’s ideas, I was in love – “
“You were in love?” Harry said, confused.
Dumbledore looked at him and suddenly he understood.
“Oh,” he said, feeling stupid. “I didn’t know that you and Grindelwald – “
“It felt as though we were compatible in every way,” Dumbledore said. “Until the day that – that Ariana died…”
See? Not a huge deal, but now we get it. Or the letter to Grindelwald that Harry reads could have ended “I love you, [signed] Albus”.
On a different note, I think it’s important for us to acknowledge Dumbledore’s flaws as a person and not just emphasize all of his good qualities so we can show how he’s a positive gay character. Dumbledore is a great person in a lot of ways, but like JKR said he can be manipulative and Machiavellian. And I like that, in relation to his being gay, because he has flaws like everyone else.
To those arguing for an interview with “an alternative viewpoint”: Should Leaky also interview someone who thinks HP leads to Satanism? Someone who opposes “race-mixing” (blood-purity is a big topic in the books, after all)? How about someone who would have problem with one of Harry’s friends being Black?
The books raise a lot of topics some people oppose, yet this is the first time I’ve seen anyone saying that that opposing view should be given a forum here.
Morals are not universal.
Acceptable behavior is not universal.
What’s tolerated and what’s not is not universal.
So there’s not going to be consensus.
Depending on where you grew, what religion you profess or believe, and your own experiences you will have some set of values.
Tolerance is good, but ultimate tolerance is the same as indifference. You will only tolerate things that match your moral values and since those are not universal then there you go.
Homosexuals are the IN thing at the moment. Everyone is coming out and the gay-er the better. So it’s being accepted, it has happened before in other cultures and times until some new order/religion/culture has made it amoral again and then it’s not ok.
For most people in the world executing criminals is amoral/disgusting. Yet in some states it’s still the Law. Is it amoral?
Anyway. I think that to talk or discuss about morals, values, religion, is a moot point as different groups understand them differently. Who can say who has the moral high ground?.
Dumbledore being gay should have been in the book. It makes the reason/motivation behind not going after G more understandable. It was important to that story just as snape’s love for lily was important in his motivation to protect harry. There were hints for snape loving lily in the books, and it was 100% clear in DH. Dumbledore’s love for G, and how that blinded him was not in the book. Why? I would still feel the same if G was a woman. This info was not some little extra info like what was jame’s job was, etc. So I’m left with the question why jo didn’t give little hints in the books, and didn’t make it clear in DH.
She was either was too coward to put the info in the book, or if she really thought it was not necessary, then she is not much of a good author.
There was someone on here that was upset with the books because he or she thought that JKR was against interracial relationships because none of the interracial relationships in the book were successful. and i thought that was a load of bullcrap. i mean i think some people just like drama so they just try to make a problem where there isn’t one in the first place. they look to deeply into things or some of them are just ignorant and don’t look at all, they just jump to stupid conclusions.
First, another thank you to Melissa, for her very patient effort to be gentle and to guide this discussion into a calmer tone.
Second, may I plead for perspective here, and for a call to reality?
I’ve just finished watching the nightly news, coming out of a major city here on the east coast of the US. Let’s see… ...the city I live near is suffering under a staggering surge in murders, violence (especially against women and children) and drugs. ...southern California is burning ...the US is involved in a war that appears to have no foreseeable end and at a staggering cost (note i am not saying anything about justified or not, simply stating what is now accepted by all political parties and opinions) ...Darfur is witnessing a continuing genocide, with women and children again bearing the brunt of the violence ...Pakistan appears to be on the verge of civil war (and there are nucleur weapons there folks!) ...the Congo has collapsed into civil war, again ...Bengla Desh is still reeling from half of the country being underwater because of monsoons, and tens of millions of people remain displaced
Should I go on? Oh, I forgot global warming, sorry…
Please put the “Dumbledore Revelation” into perspective, regardless of your position. He’s a fictional character folks, JKR’s tidbit is mildly interesting but really has very little to do with the story line. In fact, there has not been a single mention that I have noticed about how the relationship between Dumbledore and Grndelwald does play a role in the overall story (ie, at their 1945 duel)!
This isn’t The History Boys, there is no ambivalence toward Dumbledore because of his sexual orientation.
Again, I can think of a good dozen questions based on the books I would rather have JKR answer than go on with this discussion…
Has anyone asked JKR yet what the core of the Elder Wand is? What happened to Dung? What happened to Kreacher? Where did Harry and Ginny end up living? Were Lily and James hiding in the Dumbledore home in Godric’s Hollow? What happened to Fudge? (I like to think he escaped when Voldy took over, and was hiding with the Muggle Prime Minister, who looks like Tony Blair…) and many more….
In brief, to all of you have been online and involved all day, please take a break. Go spend time with your loved ones. Pet your dog, play with your cat. Savor a good meal. Stand outside and look at the sky, and appreciate how beautiful the world can be.
Personally, I think it was totally unnecessary to “out” Dumbledore. It serves no useful purpose other than to be provacative, to pander to liberal thinking ‘secular progressives’ (who dominate Europe already, and are making devastating inroads in the U.S.) and to jump on the “politically correct” bandwagon. The announcement does not advance the HP series in anyway, and only serves to be a divisive point among fans. Jo should’ve (IMHO) taken the same tack as when she answered the question from the 8 year old girl about Aberforth’s ‘goat charms’, i.e., give a ‘non-answer’ that protects childrens’ innocence and yet leaves room for adult speculation. Seems that no one, not even JKR, and resist using the ‘bully pulpit’, having achieved fame and fortune, to make ‘politically correct’ statements and shove them down people’s throats. Pity. (YMMV)
The main problem here is that there are too many people spewing words they have heard spoken about the Bible without having read the Bible and thereby understood what they were reading.
Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed because they were homosexual. They were destroyed because they were wicked. They wanted to have sex with the angels whether the angels wanted to have or not. That is considered rape.
Someone asked the question about those quote Leviticus and then still eat shrimp and pork. That is actually a very good question. I will tell you why. It’s because of New Testament scripture that unlearned Christians think they can eat the foods that the Old Testament once told them was wrong. This is incorrect. The Bible does not contradict itself they way many people believe. Those foods are still not supposed to be eaten. But because people WANT to eat them, they will use other scriptures to support what they want.
The same is true about the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath is actually one of the Commandments. But because Sabbath keeping marked one as a Jew, early Christians (Catholics) began to worship on Sunday instead of Saturday. Does this mean we no longer have to keep the Sabbath? No. But ask any Christian (Protestant) who worships on Sunday, and they will tell you that the New Testament did away with the Sabbath. This is not true. You can ask any Catholic about why they worship on Sunday and they will tell you.
The same is true about homosexuality. Yes, there are several verses that state that a man should not sleep with a man. But there is a reason and a context under which those statements were being made. The Bible also says that we should not fornicate – have sex without marriage; or commit adultery – have sex with someone else’s husband or wife; and yet those things are still done. There are support group out there for unmarried women with babies. Is this wrong? Divorce is rampant in the country; but is anyone out there trying to lynch divorce lawyers? No.
The point is that Jesus said to go forth and preach His kingdom; the one that is coming, not the corrupt one that is already here. This means walking His life and speaking in Love. Telling the world about the Love of Christ. I don’t care who you love; but I know the fact that you CAN love is paramount. Telling someone that the way they were born or that their sexual preference is wrong is NOT preaching the Love of Christ. This will not lead anyone to Christ. And it is NOT what He wanted those who love HIM to do! So stop worrying about who someone has sex with and start preaching about the LOVE of CHRIST like HE told you to do. Let HIM worry about the rest of it. Let HIM do the sorting out!
When we read books, and that includes the Harry Potter novels, our own cultures and backgrounds affect how we interpret the characters and story. Whether the interpretations are right or wrong, I can’t say. I think, the passionate reactions this news has created says more about where the readers are coming from, then what JKR intended.
Ok…I didn’t want to post really long comments, so my two cents on Dumbledore are in my blog here: http://12amusings.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/dumbledore/
And my two cents on Christianity and Homosexuality are here: http://12amusings.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/neither-judge-nor-jury/
~Debbie
To Bratpack: let me add my congratulations to you on being a REAL Christian. To Tracey: just to clarify one thing…It is my understanding that Alice Walker is bi, not gay. And to those of you who are saying you don’t want to be HP fans anymore: we don’t really need you, so buh-bye! :)
The Leaky’s involvement in this development has been wonderful and I hope the relevation helps promote tolerance worldwide.
It was also nice to see Willow/Tara from Buffy mentioned, although I have to say that however she was eventually labeled, Willow’s actions showed her to be bisexual as opposed to unilaterally gay. She fell in love with at least two men and apparently experienced strong desire for them (although I agree Tara was her soulmate).
Anyway, good job, Melissa and crew!
Sorry, comments are closed for this article.
Leaky Poll
Moving the HBP film to July 2009 is:
- Completely unforgivable35 (45%)
- Annoying, but I'll get over it28 (36%)
- Not something I care about.4 (5%)
- Cool; who wants to go to the movies in the winter anyway?1 (1%)
- Awesome! I get to save $10 until next year.3 (3%)
- Awesome! I get to save $10 because now I'm skipping this movie!4 (5%)
- I've made a Facebook group, started a protest, called my local councilman, staged a sit-in, started a boycott, and organized a million-fan march because we won't stand for the - wait, what was this about again?2 (2%)
there doesn’t seem to be any viewpoints other than favorable. Either that or they are all being deleted so that that only one side shows. As for me, I feel betrayed by JKR. I will not read another word she prints. Gay and lesbianism is a deviant lifestyle, the practicing of which is unacceptable in any Christian society. For JKR to come out after all the books have been printed and sold and made this statement is unfair to the readers who have made her a millionaire many times over.