@Daniela & desertwind

I’ve been thinking about “But I wonder what Rowling thought when Steve offered his services.”

That must have been an awkward moment. I know that fans and critics have been offered the chance to work on Lord of the Rings publications. They were professionals in their own right and already had credentials long before the movies were possibilities. So I guess working with your favorite author on a publication isn’t unheard of, but its a bit delicate. Hmm. I guess we might never know how that all went over. Thanks mollywobbles for digging that up. Very interesting.

I don’t disagree that Steve put alot of time and effort into the Lexicon, and Jo recognised him for it. I feel him demanding a job was rather rude. I mean why don’t you just take the author recognising you, and complementing you on your work. For me that whould be the greatest reward of all. You would be admired with the full respect of all the fans for it.

This interview SVA has given confirms he’s either indeed lost his compass on what it means to be a fan and love and respect JK’s work, or that he’s merely repeating what his counselor’s told him to say -in which case he’d be better off saying “sorry-cannot-speak-legal-thingy”.

People at Leaky: I applaud your decision, as tough as I imagine it must have been. I take it, not as a siding with JKR/WB, but as a siding with common sense. A conforting snorgle for you guys.

thank you for providing informations about the trial up to now and for keeping on doing so.

so there is going to be a parting of the ways, there will be sadness and there will be new beginnings, maybe for better than for worse. the leaky cauldron will be about the films and the books, and the lexicon will be about the books mostly. leaky and its fans will be the good girls and boys, jo’s army (complying to warner bros.), whereas steve will be the eternal bad guy.

i detested and detest the way warner tried to intimidate a small publisher, i could and cannot help it – i do hope they will lose the case.

whatever the legal outcome will be i wish leaky’s team the best.

did leaky only post comments that were in agreement with them ?

i dont know, i kinda feel like david and goliath here. i wonder if jo would have made the same decision without warner bros et all egging her on.

@ Carol

If you go back through the pages of comments, you will see that there a few who disagree with Leaky. Perhaps you are only seeing the agreeing ones because you haven’t read them all and probably because we are in the majority.

@Pam, Daniela, desertwind, mollywobbles23, et al.

”@Daniela & desertwind

I’ve been thinking about “But I wonder what Rowling thought when Steve offered his services.”

That must have been an awkward moment. I know that fans and critics have been offered the chance to work on Lord of the Rings publications. They were professionals in their own right and already had credentials long before the movies were possibilities. So I guess working with your favorite author on a publication isn’t unheard of, but its a bit delicate. Hmm. I guess we might never know how that all went over. Thanks mollywobbles for digging that up. Very interesting.”

I think it must be remembered that part of the problem as it developed is that there is little definitive information (as is noted above) and I would say little likelihood of every getting that information, on a lot of issues in this case.

This one issue, however, based at least on the depositions and other statements available, appears to have been an absolutely unsolicited proposal/request to be hired on for a job that didn’t (and still doesn’t, to my knowledge) exist. There was no advertisement regarding the availability of this position, there was no “job posting”, as it were, anywhere. And I think that is because, as somebody pointed out, JKR has her own staff to organize and catalogue the various pieces of information that she will want to review/include in the Scottish book. Not to mention her own, obviously intimate knowledge of her own work.

A question that keeps popping up for me is the “she used the Lexicon” argument, the look that Ms. Rowling is said to have had, to refresh her memory. It has been intimated that this constitutes recognition of the value of the Lexicon, and should help to exonerate RDR in this case. And so what really is the value of the Lexicon, by which I mean the book, not the website.

There have been many answers provided (she only took a quick look to confirm something while on tour, she never really looked at all, she ALWAYS looks because it is the best there is, even better than her own knowledge). Obviously, some of these appear to be nothing more than attempts to sway opinion in one direction or another (at least in my opinion) but really, none of the answers given deal with question which is “if, in fact, Ms. Rowling INDEED looked at the Lexicon (and really it is immaterial which of the various compilations of existing fact she might have consulted), is there some reason that would happen. I guess, the thing for me is that if I know the story backward and forward, having conceived, created, nurtured and launched it myself, surely I know it better than anyone else.

After thinking about that and relating it to some of the (admittedly inconsequential) things I have written … reports, essays, that sort of thing, which are MUCH shorter and MUCH less complex than the HP series … I may have an answer, both to why she might have used such a source, and what the true value of such a source is. Certainly it works for me, and I suspect it has a modicum of truth to it.

I don’t always remember a specific nit-picky detail of something I wrote just last week (yes, I know, I AM OLD after all), and I think how it would be nice if somebody had organized or otherwise recorded what I had said in a quick reference format. How much more might this be a useful thing for an author who has SO MUCH to remember, and further, is EXPECTED, in interviews, articles and so on, to remember and comment on those details at the drop of a hat. Add to this the fact that JKR has admitted (and why not, ALL great authors do it) to making a mistake occasionally and needing to correct it. So the POTENTIAL for her using some compendium, such as the Lexicon, is there.

But then, I began to think of a SIGNIFICANT difference between what the Lexicon provides and what ONLY the author can provide. That is the motivation, the thought, the reasoning behind an item or event.. And that is what really provided me with my own insight regarding the value of a Lexicon, a Wikipedia or other agglomeration of FACTS, as opposed to the “creative mind” (to quote wording used by RDR’s lawyers) itsef.

The former are, in fact, really nothing but entries in a list. The Lexicon part of the website (and the source for the book) is nothing more than that, and should, even then, have attached to it substantial commentary, subtantial analysis and threading of events, or some other NEW and ORIGINAL content before it can be considered Fair Use (and please, I am not saying it does or doesn’t … I’m trying to remain as open minded as possible, since a great part of the court decision will be based on perception and interpretation). The Scottish book, when eventually published, is going, we understand, to provide much original work in new information and additional information on existing materials.

So what IS the value of a lexicon or other compilation of data and entries, and the answer is, unless it motivates you to think for yourself, to ask, analyze, consider and reconsider, it has NO creative value. The websites, including Lexicon, that provide commentary and interpretation to the facts they carry ADD value. The Scottish book will ADD value. A listing of facts COULD add value if it serves to stimulate new ideas or analysis. But to do that, it has to be more than simply a resource to remind you where or when something happened. It has to motivate you to think about why, or what might have happened if, and so on.

So don’t get me wrong, there is obviously value in having the simple compendium or list too. But the issue here, to me is ADDING value (Fair Use talks about transformative works, Different works, NEW works, or, simply put, ADDED value). I think, since JKR KNOWS what she created, her only use, in my opinion, of a lexicon would be as a reminder of what was, not as a stimulator of what could or might be, that is … not a true value ADDER, because she could find that information without consulting anything but her memory.

So, we might have here at least a plausible reason for JKR to have consulted the Lexicon. But such use would essentially constitute verification of existing facts, and that use, I think, is difficult to translate into an endorsement of the idea to publish the existing list of facts for profit.

Indeed that is how I view the concept of the “information Age”, and how I see the value of much of the internet and reference sections in libraries.. the information that you need to HELP YOU MOVE ON is found there, but it isn’t the new idea that you will create, or the thought that you will use to analyze or comment.. It is ONLY the existing fact, not the new creation.

At least in my humble opinion.

Sorry for the (as usual) long and rambling post. Be NICE to me… I’m OLD!

M.

....and it’s the fans that get the shaft. Like, I’ve been saying – no matter who wins, we lose.

The Floo Network is the first casualty. The longstanding relationship with the Lexicon is severed. SVA can’t come on PotterCast because his views differ from Leaky’s.

Legal issues are involved and Leaky makes the hard call. Not that they had much of choice – legally they probably had to.

But this is what happens when fandom starts crossing over into the business world. It’s a new whole ballgame with big boy rules.

Settle in and buckle up Potterfans, it will only continue!

laughing Man I don’t believe “it will only continue”, I am afraid it will all end. These websites take a lot of effort to create, who is to say people will carry on after the last movie, or that interest will continue. There is always a spike in activity around a new book or movie. There is only one movie left and the scottish book, is that enough to sustain massive websites like Leaky and Mugglenet, who maintain constant updates. On another fear The lexicon is a wonderful resource, I don’t mean to belittle it in any way. However I disagree with the notion that the work on the lexicon should be compensated. The lexicon for me has always had those dark trademarks and copyrights on their pages, if this about fair use why does the lexicon so vehemently protect thier pages and images. I can right click on all of the great images in the leaky fan art gallery and use them for background pictures. I can’t do that on the lexicon. That has always been a problem for me. I am not selling images or using things for profit, I am merely using them for my own enjoyment, because I think they are wonderful and cannot produce them myself. IMHO the lexicon(or steve) protected their lists, images, character summaries, family trees etc. because he always felt compensation was deserved. I always had a problem with the lexicon and their assumption that anything dealing with organization of HP world is theirs. I don’t see the information anywhere else on the web, unless Steve was a contributer, even though I am sure there are many people out there who could do the same thing. Steve is publishing the lexicon to make it legit, if it is allowed to be published and deemed legal with out expanding fair use as it stands now, Steve owns HP lists. That means a future official WB/JKR website or encyclopedia has to contend with the lexicon. But if Steve wins on an expanded fair use argument, then I can take everything on the lexicon and sell it as my own book too( I would have to change some things but you get the idea) Since day one of this case I found it ironic that Steve protects everything on his site, But he believes that JKR/WB can’t protect theirs.

@dumbleweeb

Not being able to right click on the Lexicon has always annoyed me as well, for all the reasons you listed.

As for the websites continuing, they will. Will they be as active ten years from now? Probably not. But, there are three movies left (HBP and the two DH) and there’s the theme park. There’s plenty of stuff for the next few years to keep these sites going. I think some of the smaller ones will shut down in five years, but the big ones like Leaky aren’t going anywhere anytime soon.

@ Morton

Just when I thought this topic had been exhausted after all analysis possible you have thought out a completely different point of view. Well said…....and you may find yourself being call as an expert fandom witness along with ms. mollywobbles.

Cathy,

You flatterer! (check is in the mail!)

What?? lol

For RDR’s sake, they shouldn’t call me in as a witness.

I’m sorry Cathy, did you say something? Hard of hearing you know.. OLD!! lol

I’m hardly and expert on fandom, I’m just a dabbler, but if you’re asking for nominations… hmmm .. Mollywobbles? NotTheHbp? ummm … CATHY???

Now, excuse me, while I dodder along for my afternoon nap… ummm … where did I put my teeth?

M.

Seriously, I’m hardly an expert on fandom. I didn’t even really join the online fandom until around the time HBP was released. If anyone’s close to being an expert, it would be Melissa. She wrote a book about it! I bet she learned stuff she didn’t know before. That reminds me, I need to pre-order it.

I’ve too have always wondered about the copyright statements on the Lexicon, but I don’t have a problem being able to copy anything from the Lexicon. I just drag pictures or text over to the desktop or word processing or draw document and the info comes over fine. I’m on a Mac, so that may be the difference.

Now if only I could get iTunes to import PotterCast #128 or #126. It doesn’t matter if I’m on my old Mac or my new one. All the other episodes import just fine. I’m at the point now where I’m asking a couple of friends if they can import those episodes and email them to me. Since I’m a retired computer teacher, I’ve tried everything before taking that step.